Fix or Remove Docked Thrust

    NeonSturm

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    ––1––
    Critical Mass - is an amount of material required to have a sustained chain reaction. However, all fuel ends up spent at some point so there is no actual sustained other than for the length of the fuel lasts. Secondly, reaction rates differ depending on density and type of materials in use.

    ––2––
    First of 10cm is a measure of dimension thus size so how can it be independent of size? You are talking about a wall, what yield? Walls don't have yield. Yield means to produce what is the wall producing? ... Most confusing shit read all week.

    Attractive target. What makes a target attractive militarily is strategic importance or actual value.

    ––3––
    Just got done explaining larger isn't less efficient only in this game is that true! Your math is off by the way. Just because the dimensions are double doesn't mean the size is 2x its actually 8x. because 2x2x2.

    ––4––
    No you don't need all sizes for each and every task you have different sizes to deal with different tasks.

    ––5––
    If we assume the death star was strictly offensive then any military with one would but other defenses in the area to protect such a vital strategic target. Because asset protection is scaled on basis of threat what I said holds true no matter what.

    the only way your fighters would get in range of it in reality would be if a capital ship flew up to it and dropped them off using is shields as their primary defense to get close enough.

    ––6––
    We can get an exact position on voyager at 122 astronomical units away from us it has about a 27 watt transmitter if operating at full power. We can shoot a flying drone with a laser on a moving ship that is dealing with waves and so on and take it out of the sky. In space we don't have a horizon we have a few objects with a hell of a distance between them. There are no waves and bumpy rides. The only issue in space when it comes to hitting a target is will they detect the shot and move before it reaches them. In space you have 3 speeds of a shot. Sub light, light speed, and FTL. Since we now have a theory how to do FTL it can be applied to something like a torpedo. Since torpedo don't have humans on them you only have to deal with them being strong enough to handle the mechanical stress of the acceleration. Which means they can move a hell of a lot faster than a ship with people in them. That is until someone comes up with an dampener system to prevent those issues as well.

    ––7––
    Here's a thought even with FTL we aren't going to be able to take something the size of the X-wing fighter and visit another solar system. the reason isn't top speed it is the time it takes to reach that speed. We could reach it very fast. We would be dead near instantly though paste dripping through out the ship in a rush to get to the back of the ship. In short there is only so many G-forces we can take when accelerating.
    We will still need food and supplies to survive that journey. Which means no little puddle jumper will ever be used for going for solar system to solar system. So just to reach the death star unless you are on the planet it is about to attack or in that solar system you are going to have to ride a capital ship there and then board a fighter.

    ––8––
    Like I said the more you actually understand about the science and math the more issues stand out and the less enjoyable this becomes.
    You didn't understood what I said at all. You only put a bad impression on my text by talking about non-issues.

    ––1––
    Critical mass? I talked the minimum dimensions of the system, try putting the "Large-Hadron-Collider" into a fighter. Imagine the most efficient engine would be that size (independent what reason, SM is random-physics Sci-Fi).

    The other way around, imagine the most efficient being solar-plate-like engines requiring surface area as with some type/version of (early only?) ion drives IRL as I've seen a documentation about 2-3 years ago.

    ––2––
    A wall produces ofc no yield, but it reduces the space available for stuff which is producing yield.

    If something spends 40% volume on walls (left+right, front-rear, top-bottom is actually 80%*80%*80% = about 50%)
    50% engine space.
    If walls would make up 10cm out of 100m, it would be 98%*98%*98% and you pay less weight (relative) for walls and have more internals which are likely more expensive and thus more attractive.

    ––3––
    The volume is 8x. The visible size is 4x. The scale is 2x (one dimension).

    If you point a gun into the centre of a 2x2x2 box, you can miss only with an inaccuracy of >1m.
    If you point a gun into the centre of a 4x4x4 box, you can miss with an inaccuracy of >2m –– scale is the important thing here, not volume.

    1 box needs to accelerate 1m during projectile flight time, the other 2m
    → which is 2x as much change with a 16x as powerful thruster for 8x mass
    → 2x thrust/mass ratio.

    Think before complaining.

    ––4––
    Also if you preserve docking space for fighters/shuttles or whatever for a task, you need to reserve docking space for the ships that execute all tasks you encounter.

    ––5––
    The death-star was protected by a shield emitted from the planet below. It has not been fully built or activated at the time the fighters attacked (which shouldn't have got to it by it's design-draft / blueprint-specifications).
    And the capital would be an easy target for the main gun (which may be inappropriate to target thousand little fighters instead).

    ––6, 7––
    What if StarMade has FTL-sensors and artificial gravity to counter acceleration force affecting humans? Oh wait, IT HAS!

    ––8––
    And the more difficult it is to not get a troll complaining about non-issues. Am I right? ;)
    [DOUBLEPOST=1451945422,1451945132][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Encouraging modular ship design (simply for the sake of modular ship design, and not because it actually adds anything to the game) is Bad. We need ships to have fewer entities, not more.
    It is a non-issue. Docked entities cannot collide with docked entities on the same master-entity, except if they are moving. Else they can just reserve space in chunks on the master-entity without own inertia and position calculations.

    And if they move, only the cross-section along the axis they move can collide, which can be calculated using run-length-compression, because it's projected on the same grid.
     
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    Lecic

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    It is a non-issue. Docked entities cannot collide with docked entities on the same master-entity, except if they are moving. Else they can just reserve space in chunks on the master-entity without own inertia and position calculations.
    It doesn't matter if docked entities can't collide if they aren't moving. Larger numbers of entities still cause more lag. Try spawning 10,000 cores and a 10,000 block ship and you'll see the difference clear as day.

    They'll also lag the server to hell on the off-chance something manages to hit their docks.
     
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    Idk what thread you're reading, dude, but at some point it completely diverged from the topic in this thread.

    Encouraging modular ship design (simply for the sake of modular ship design, and not because it actually adds anything to the game) is Bad. We need ships to have fewer entities, not more.
    The so called divergence you are talking about is in the point of explaining the underlying problem of what is going on.
    Sorry, if you had trouble following along.

    I will try and make this very very simple for you.
    The problem with the thrusters only exists because of the poor initial design of making power and thrust systems that work counter to math and general science and logic.
    If people hadn't gotten used to the bad design this wouldn't be an issue at all.

    The rest of the discussion evolves around addressing people's misconceptions for example bigger is less efficient. Not in reality only in the fouled up math implemented in this game is that true.

    You should go back and read through the discussion you might learn something.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1451960129,1451959628][/DOUBLEPOST]
    I'm pretty sure Lancake said in chat that this was NOT intended.

    It's easier to balance by just making everything work the same.
    Unlikely I have my message from asking lancake about the stick ship and it was intended for such per him.

    "Yeah, it was the idea to allow modular thrust. Or in this case from your drones. I don't see any exploits about this, just a clever design so nice job on making it work :)" ~Lancake

    Actually it isn't easier to balance by just making everything work the same. It takes more coding to do things this way vs using a natural law system. Which you might have picked up had you read the discussion or tried to grasp it. But then again maybe you did try and the issue was simply you couldn't.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1451960259][/DOUBLEPOST]
    It doesn't matter if docked entities can't collide if they aren't moving. Larger numbers of entities still cause more lag. Try spawning 10,000 cores and a 10,000 block ship and you'll see the difference clear as day.

    They'll also lag the server to hell on the off-chance something manages to hit their docks.
    That is only a matter of implementation that can be fixed. They just need to create the structure as a single unit and then deal with the systems as a separate entity until something causes them to split apart.
     

    Lecic

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    The so called divergence you are talking about is in the point of explaining the underlying problem of what is going on.
    Sorry, if you had trouble following along.

    I will try and make this very very simple for you.
    The problem with the thrusters only exists because of the poor initial design of making power and thrust systems that work counter to math and general science and logic.
    If people hadn't gotten used to the bad design this wouldn't be an issue at all.

    The rest of the discussion evolves around addressing people's misconceptions for example bigger is less efficient. Not in reality only in the fouled up math implemented in this game is that true.

    You should go back and read through the discussion you might learn something.
    No, I pretty clearly stated I understood what you were saying, and that it wasn't the cause of the problem. You proceeded to go write a 25 page essay on how the game should work off of real world logic, despite it not being as balanced from a game perspective. YOU are the one who doesn't understand that this system is more enjoyable and that no one really gives a shit.

    Now, I'd like ask you to stop being obnoxious and condescending, and start actually contributing, or leave.

    Unlikely I have my message from asking lancake about the stick ship and it was intended for such per him.

    "Yeah, it was the idea to allow modular thrust. Or in this case from your drones. I don't see any exploits about this, just a clever design so nice job on making it work :)" ~Lancake

    Actually it isn't easier to balance by just making everything work the same. It takes more coding to do things this way vs using a natural law system. Which you might have picked up had you read the discussion or tried to grasp it. But then again maybe you did try and the issue was simply you couldn't.
    Modular thrust was intended. Completely bypassing the thrust curves was not, which Lancake said to Master_Artificer and therimmer96 in chat.
     
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    No, I pretty clearly stated I understood what you were saying, and that it wasn't the cause of the problem. You proceeded to go write a 25 page essay on how the game should work off of real world logic, despite it not being as balanced from a game perspective. YOU are the one who doesn't understand that this system is more enjoyable and that no one really gives a shit.

    Now, I'd like ask you to stop being obnoxious and condescending, and start actually contributing, or leave.

    Modular thrust was intended. Completely bypassing the thrust curves was not, which Lancake said to Master_Artificer and therimmer96 in chat.
    You miss the point entirely. It doesn't matter if it is or isn't more enjoyable.
    The current system will create more and more issues as development progresses. At some point if they leave it as is it will force them to either halt development or rewrite everything. No if ands or buts about it. This isn't the first game company to make a choice like this.

    Facts:
    It takes more code to keep this working the way it is.
    Each time they add something new that is effected by it or that effects it it will require more code than it would the other way.
    Meaning if they keep going with this production will be slowed by it work will increase.

    Would it be smarter now to deal with the issue or down the road after they put a hell of lot of work into and have countless added lines in the system just to deal with this bad choice?

    Me, I want them to succeed and this game to continue on I don't want them running into a programming brick wall. What would that do for them or the game and the community.

    Given I made the point about it causing more issue in the prior discussion and you said you read it and understood it. Then I have to assume you don't care about the aspect of what really happens in the long run of the game just so long as you get your way now?

    Or is it you actually don't understand Compounded mathematical inconsistencies caused programming issues in games and why?

    So which is it you don't understand how the math can create issues or you simply don't care and just want your way?
     

    Tunk

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    meh, I put the math on the table and explained why it was bad.
    Its generally agreed that its bad.
    Its confirmed by testers and staff to be bad.

    Not really much more left here to say until they implement a fix, which is hopefully going to be applying the thrust math to the entire thruster count rather than adding thrust values.

    Now that the topics devolved into waving e-peens around how about we close it?
     

    Lecic

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    You miss the point entirely. It doesn't matter if it is or isn't more enjoyable.
    The current system will create more and more issues as development progresses. At some point if they leave it as is it will force them to either halt development or rewrite everything. No if ands or buts about it. This isn't the first game company to make a choice like this.

    Facts:
    It takes more code to keep this working the way it is.
    Each time they add something new that is effected by it or that effects it it will require more code than it would the other way.
    Meaning if they keep going with this production will be slowed by it work will increase.
    Please explain how having the CONFIGS have smaller systems be more efficient is more code intensive. I'll give you a hint- it isn't. Your sample size is a big ONE, and that's docked thrust.
     
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    [DOUBLEPOST=1451962858,1451962824][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Please explain how having the CONFIGS have smaller systems be more efficient is more code intensive. I'll give you a hint- it isn't. Your sample size is a big ONE, and that's docked thrust.
    Right now they just need
    thrust = objectA.thrusteroutput + objectB.thrusteroutput as a basic formula

    When they do what you want they will need to get thruster block count from both then combine those and the calculate the output.
    Or is that so hard for you to understand.
    which might look like

    ObjectA.temptrustercount = objectA.thrusterblockcount + objectB.thrusterblockcount
    Or they could use a child addition system....
    Then they will need to calculate thrust after that.
    Which means when a thruster takes off it won't be as simple as removing a childObject or

    Doing this will also cause issues when a child receives damage and looses say thrusters blocks on it those will end up counting as damage against the primary ship because of it will be included in its thruster block count. It would need lines of code just to ensure its own thrusters are not the ones damaged or it would be dealing with negative effects of that.

    Let me guess you didn't "think" of those issues?

    Then later on when these issue compound up and they are forced to deal with the underlying problem they will have to take those added lines of code out.
     

    Winterhome

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    looks like GRHayes doesn't realize that stats are re-checked constantly no matter what
     

    Tunk

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    [DOUBLEPOST=1451962858,1451962824][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Right now they just need
    thrust = objectA.thrusteroutput + objectB.thrusteroutput as a basic formula

    When they do what you want they will need to get thruster block count from both then combine those and the calculate the output.
    Or is that so hard for you to understand.
    which might look like

    ObjectA.temptrustercount = objectA.thrusterblockcount + objectB.thrusterblockcount
    Or they could use a child addition system....
    Then they will need to calculate thrust after that.
    Which means when a thruster takes off it won't be as simple as removing a childObject or

    Doing this will also cause issues when a child receives damage and looses say thrusters blocks on it those will end up counting as damage against the primary ship because of it will be included in its thruster block count. It would need lines of code just to ensure its own thrusters are not the ones damaged or it would be dealing with negative effects of that.

    Let me guess you didn't "think" of those issues?

    Then later on when these issue compound up and they are forced to deal with the underlying problem they will have to take those added lines of code out.
    Already taken care of and implemented in code.
    Initial build by recursing through docked entities and querying various stats.
    significant updates, docking and undocking causes rebuild as far as I know as well as entities reporting changes back to the parent.
     

    Master_Artificer

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    actually we cant pinpoint our spacecraft in space with transmiters. Sorry GRHayas
     
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    looks like GRHayes doesn't realize that stats are re-checked constantly no matter what
    Rechecking something constantly that shouldn't change unless an event happens that should change it is poor design. Which is probably a large part of why CPU usage is so high. (event being damage, docking, undocking....)

    It depends on how the current code is written and how they choose to implement it as to it mattering or not.
    Most likely they will need to create a new variable to the effect of combine trust for each ship. The combined ship would need to feel the effects of any battle damage as well. Maybe the module is actually part of the ship and not just another ship. No way currently to tell the difference.
    Being that is the case they would need to rewrite the current code to take the damage changes out of the individual ship and apply it to the combined value. Other wise you would end up with 2 times the damage effects on the ship.

    So now you have an issue where a docked ship effects a primary ships performance while docked adversely when damaged.
    Which doesn't make sense but it does for a module.
    A module on the other hand is intended to be a functioning part of the ship not commonly undocking. Thus it should effect performance.

    However, if what they are wanting implemented is then both will effect the primary ship adversely at least till the damaged ship undocks forcing a refresh.

    However, if proper math modeling was implemented then they would naturally effect the primary ship properly and require zero additional coding. You wouldn't need to look at combined thruster count. simply each thrusters output. A Module would effect the ship because it is continually attached and as long as the thruster has its own negative damage effects that would create adverse performance for the ship it is a part of. The docked ship would have reduced out put if damaged and thus be able to contribute less and when it undocks it would simply no longer be calculated in to the equation. You wouldn't need refreshes after undocking or any other type of constant refresh.

    Maybe they will come up with a way to distinguish between ships and modules so they can deal with that as well.

    I said most likely they would create separate variable. Granted another option exists
    Doing something to the effect of ObjectA.thurstcount = ObjectA.thrustcount + objectB.thrustcount..... is possible and would be stupid and open up a entire new nest of problems. If you don't know why instantly ... I would ask why you even chimed in.
    It would require testing against the initial design to determine proper separation values for A.
     

    Lancake

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    Just seems like a simple formula mistake to me. We wanted modular thrust, we did not want something like docked thrust "reactors".

    The fix for it is easy though so we can probably implement it for the next release, or the one after that.
     
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    I'll start by saying, IT'S A GAME. you have the option to use it or not. Same with dampening, you have the option to turn it back on.
    How far into the future is starmade at right now, compared to present time. we may not have that technology in todays world, we don't have massive stations or any ships at all Unless you count sputnik and space shuttles. lol
    Starmade is a game in the future that has infinite possibilities that we may not have now. By adding Docked Thrusters to my ship has helped me, by adding a motor to my bicycle also helps me. lol (we do have that tech already)

    In my opinion, it should stay, it's up to you if you use it or not, and the option is there.
     
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    So quick question. Does anyone have something to resolve the issue or are you all going to keep flaming the entire time?
     

    Winterhome

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    I'll start by saying, IT'S A GAME. you have the option to use it or not. Same with dampening, you have the option to turn it back on.
    How far into the future is starmade at right now, compared to present time. we may not have that technology in todays world, we don't have massive stations or any ships at all Unless you count sputnik and space shuttles. lol
    Starmade is a game in the future that has infinite possibilities that we may not have now. By adding Docked Thrusters to my ship has helped me, by adding a motor to my bicycle also helps me. lol (we do have that tech already)

    In my opinion, it should stay, it's up to you if you use it or not, and the option is there.

    It's less about that and more that nobody in their right mind wants to see battleships turning as quickly as fighters
     
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    Keptick

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    Please explain how having the CONFIGS have smaller systems be more efficient is more code intensive. I'll give you a hint- it isn't. Your sample size is a big ONE, and that's docked thrust.
    Right? Let's all take wild guesses as to how the game is coded and conclude that requiring two or three more lines of code in a game containing tens of thousands is SUPER code intensive!!!!

    *cough*