Build mode camera : Respect POLA - adopt gyroscopic free camera

[Croquelune]

No offense to the dev team but in my opinion and my own gaming experience it's one of the weirdest and illogical thing I had ever seen and experiment. The actual camera is tricky, unrational and unpredictable when building. It's bring me a lot frustation to be hinder when I build.

It doesn't respect the POLA (no Pola isn't a Polish chick but the Principe Of Least Astonishment), I play SM since few weeks now but that still annoying me a lot and I highly recommend to apply the advocated solution if Schine won't follow the dark evil path of "It's not a bug, it's a feature !".

Here a (bad) sketch of the build mode camera design. On the left, the actual awful axial camera system ; on the right, the advocated gyroscopic one.

Why the actual axial camera don't respect POLA ? Because I enter build mode 1st time (default camera)...
1. When I move my mouse left or right I'm able to make infinite clockwise (or anticlockwise) circle loop around myself. Nice, I assimilate that.
2. Assuming that, by move up or down my mouse I would think I'm able to do infinite clockwise (or anticlockwise) vertical circle loop around myself aswell but surprise, no. Instead of that by moving up my camera do a half loop and stuck to the zenith, and by moving down do a half loop stuck to the nadir. That the 1st bad surprise, but ok let's assimilate that also.
3. Well, assuming the surprise from point 2. and what I learn during point 1. I would think once I reach the zenith or the nadir I'm able to skirt around that vertical circle limitation by doing infinite clockwise (or anticlockwise) circle loop around myslef again just by moving my mouse left or right but surprise again, no. This time when I move left or right I have a strange unpredictable nonsense spinning movement merge from nowhere around an invisible axe impaling myself from the bottom to the top (the red spiral on the sketch). Worst it's totally unpredictable because it's seem depend of the angle from the axe. Close of the axe it's a roll movement, far it's a spin. That the 2nd bad surprise, and this one is a real bad one cause it's really confusing.
4. I don't rely on anything anymore and just strive like a lion with my mouse in order to reverse that damn camera because I want to flip and see the bottom of my ship like if it was the top but surprise, it's impossible to reverse the cam. In fact during this 5 minute of struggle I just made some silly up-and-down-clockwise-anticlockwise spin waves movements around that stupid axe because it's simply impossible to reverse it. Why ? Cause, we can't do any vertical circle roll, or even side roll except (surprise again) for the zenith and the nadir where the loop movement change for that sudden unwilled messy roll move around the axe when we build on the top or the bottom.

That last point really sucks because it's a real pain to work a ship from the top or from the bottom. :/

If we got the gyroscopic fly mode view instead of that astronaut mode view it'll make it really really really easier for us. And we would be able at least to see the allure of our reversed ship.

That locked axe have absolutely no advantage.

 

[SkaireKrough]

I agree camera movement in build mode should be like ship movement, same goes for astronaut movement when not affected by gravity.

 

[Croquelune]

Necro of 8 months but it's for the sake of Starmade because THIS IS A MAJOR BLOCKING PROBLEM.

Actually when I build ship I feel like this :


… and I guess I'm not alone. So, citizens, if you feel also like this just merge this thread (even if I tortured the beautiful language of Shakespeare, sorry for that).

Thanks. Cause let's be frank I know no-one who'll enjoy to learn reverse bike to enjoy ride.

 

[nightrune]

The 3D controls mostly, seem to act just like any 3D cad software I've ever used. I think the camera is locked a bit to help stop abusing the build mode camera.

 

[kookster]

I think that the astronaut mode should be the same as the ship camera, but build mode i am just fine with.

 

[Groovrider]

I often find that I am zoomed out in build mode. Upon zooming back in the axis controls seem more like every other 3d program I've used.

 

[Croquelune]

Well, you got the point that similar to the "nailed view" use in some 3D editors. At least on editors, if I remember well, we can activate or deactivate this option. Moreover, in somes you have that "technical draw" window aside where you can render your 2D draw to 3D.

But anyway, 3D editor and Starmade are really different concept.

On 3D editor you mold your shape from void. You can afford that kind of view to help you keep in mind your top and bottom. You just have to left click and draw vector lines, then fill it.
In Starmade, you have to put cube manually once by once (or almost).

I took .gif and screensave to explain ans show why that A to Z nail view is a real problem, and why it's a total crappy thing.

Let's say A = top of the nail, Z = the bottom of the nail. So if you are looking from A you're looking your ship from above and from Z you're looking it from below.

Here the view from the point A of the nail. The salvage block represent is the center of the actual nail view. I let you admire the declination of the ship when I just want to place two adjacent right & left blocks to that salvage one (by the way admire also how my yellow cursor square randomly hits few others adjacents squares unpurposely before reach the targeted square ; proof, if it still needed one, that the actual system is unreliable and very difficult to apprehend & control).

How are you suppose to apply a projection of your mind on a moving carrier? It's very disturbing, it's like asking me to draw something clean and right on a rotating table. If it is not impossible (theorycally) that requires from me a lot of concentration, patience and practice to bear it. Anyway, that asking me too much to permit me to enjoy the ride.

It's a bit more visible on screensave, here it's what my mind would like to use as default orientation during my top (or bot) ship block-building, in order to not be disturb during the conception phase and be only focus on the butt-naked Mary pin-up I would draw on the roof of my ship.

There is what I undergo de facto

And each time I'm confront to this situation my pin-up Mary projection just fade out to the vacuum of space, and it's hard to bring her back.

On this one I put salvage blocks where the disorientation due to the declination wasn't too "big" and was bearable (understand "where my square don't become diamond") to have an idea where Mary picture won't fade away.

It's a pretty little angle of view of ~90°. In other words, it's more than 75% (red striked) of your screen where you can't build properly without suffer disorientation due to that nail locked point. The only part where you can apply properly the shape of your imagination without large deformation, rotation, declination or any feelings close of "drawing during a scale 8 earthquake" is that green part... and it's not even close to the center of your screen, it's neither convenient. Remind also that line are invisible, you have no guideline on SM editor so you have to keep them in mind and guess them.

So let's draw something bad ass & nasty, like the satanic cross on that top green part. What happen if I want reach the red part below to make a duplicate one.

Yeah exactly after a total nonsense chaotic camera spin I have to reset my mind and think about a new shape : the Christ cross.
You can experiment with Soviet red star and Pentagram.

It's seem trivial here because it's just a basic shape, but what about my butt-naked Mary pin-up ? Can you really visualiaze a pin-up image upside-down ? Nah. Or yes but with incommensurable difficulties and a high rate of propensity to commit mistakes.
It's like recite the alphabet A to Z, it took me only 6 seconds but recite it Z to A, damn 63 seconds with lot of hesitations, calculations and mistakes. That's exactly the same problem here to draw or the reverse bike. Even if your brain understand, you can't handle it without effort and practice. And me, like more than 90% of people, I hate useless effort.

Let's see now what happen at the right flank of that nail. What happen if I want place adjacents blocks to my salvage block.

No comment. Just peace of mind. I can easely do my pin-up Mary without argue with myself and struggle with SM build mode.

Conclusion :
- I'm happy that few peoples enjoy reverse bike or be able to recite Z to A less than 10 seconds but that not reasons to impose that to everyone. Cause simply most of the people are fine with their regular bike and do not want learn nonsense method to enjoy the game.
- Currently epileptics should avoid changing their vessels from above or below.
- If you don't solve that thing the game will be and stay a failure, cause you'll reach only the niche-market of the 3D editors users, infographists & co.

Solutions :
1) Apply the free cam.
2) OR, at least, make it able to oriente that nailed view to match with the desires of the ship designer. It's mean concretely to permit him to :

• Nail from top to bottom (actual view)
• Nail from bottom to top (in order to see the ship reversed)
  
• Nail from front to back (in order to avoid nail problem on top face and bottom face)
  
• Nail from back to front (prevention)
  
• Nail from right to left (prevention)
• Nail from left to right (prevention)

PS : Illustrations are maybe totally messy, that bug is already reported to this thread.
EDIT : minor correction & PS

 

[haserd2]

Why not have it as a option to change to and from your proposed view point, this way we don't aggravate the people who like the current system, but also let the people who agree with you get their way as well.

 

[Croquelune]

Why not have it as a option to change to and from your proposed view point, this way we don't aggravate the people who like the current system, but also let the people who agree with you get their way as well.

Of course, I'm too lazy to edit today the initial post. But I'm totally agree with you. If some peoples enjoy that weird thing, they should be free to enjoy it aswell.

 

[Keptick]

I'm pretty sure it's the way it is so that the up/down of the point of view is always aligned to the ship, so you can't end up looking at the ship sideways of upside down. I'm grateful for it, since building things upside down on docked entities always feels really weird (flying around doesn't, weirdly enough).

 

[Lord_Greyscale]

I too would rather have a proper 6 degrees of freedom Build camera, just like we do when flying the ship.

Most of the reason is simply that "building" whatever seems to be the upper surface is far far easier (for me) than the lower surface.

I have allso been irritated that the left/right spin gets slower the closer to vertical my camera gets.
(to be clear, that problem is most obvious on turrets with 85~90 degree elevated barrels. can't spin it around to track the target with the same speed as when the barrels are 0 degrees)

As such, removing that "nail" (or pin) locking the vertical camera rotation would be a big help.
Removing the one preventing Z/X "tilt" would help me even more, as I could then simply "roll", and the bottom of the ship now gets edited the same way as the top of it.

 

[Croquelune]

I'm grateful for it, since building things upside down on docked entities always feels really weird (flying around doesn't, weirdly enough).

Well, all the more reason to support the advocated suggestion since it would allow you to edit your upside-downed docked entities in the way you feel the more comfortable that's means in that case (if I hadn't misunderstood) to reverse the view from your docked entity in order to make it match with the right way up view of your main ship.

 

[Keptick]

Well, all the more reason to support the advocated suggestion since it would allow you to edit your upside-downed docked entities in the way you feel the more comfortable that's means in that case (if I hadn't misunderstood) to reverse the view from your docked entity in order to make it match with the right way up view of your main ship.

Oh, I really didn't consider that.... Holy sh*t yes.