Attempt at Reworking the Economy

[War Dog]

Currently, the idea is that the relative ease of getting blocks to sell is balanced by the fact that you need to find shops to sell them to. That means spending all that time flying around looking for shops and then selling your stuff; finding more shops, selling your stuff, repeat ad nauseum.

That's not balance, that's BORING. The idea of "balance" here is boring players until they give up.

Here is my attempt at reworking this system.

First off, and I don't mention this lightly, is to limit player inventory. Keep the same number of slots, but limit each slot to 5,000 blocks.

Next, let's change how plexstorages work. Plexstorages link to a "Cargo Computer" like weapon blocks. Use the cargo computer to access your storage. Each plexstorage linked to a cargo computer holds up to 5,000 of 1 item. You can link up to 45 plexstorages to one computer. And you can have multiple computers.

Did someone say cargo ship? Well that's the idea yes.

Picking up floating loot or using salvage cannons adds them to your cargo holds before it goes into your inventory.

You might ask whether this will affect servers using BP-block purchase. Unfortunately, yes. In this case, I'd suggest that it can also use blocks inside cargo holds.

The next big change is to shops. Instead of infinity+1 small shops; there are now several BIG shops. Essentially, there are now several NPC factions. Trading Guild, Smugglers Guild, Salvagers Guild, Factory Guild, etc (though they're just reskins). If you access a shop belonging to the trading guild, you access its faction shop; so if you access another shop belonging to the trading guild, it'll be the same shop.

NPC Shops have infinite stock and credits, but they also remember how many of each block they have; their prices are based on that.

You can buy/sell up to 5,000 of a block per transaction and prices update every transaction. Furthermore, the prices of blocks are calculated from 50%-120% of base price when you are selling and 80%-150% when you are buying. (Compared to the current 100% - 250%)

They have a "stock index" where they store up to 500,000 blocks. The lower the index is, the higher the price is.

Let's have an example of this in action: A salvagers guild shop has a stock index of 500,000 for grey hull blocks; so the prices are at the lowest (80 credits to buy). You then buy 5,000 grey hull for 400,000 credits. The stock index changes to 495,000 and the price changes slightly (81 credits to buy).

Now we head to the trading guild shop which has a stock index of 0 for grey hull; so prices are the highest (120 credits to sell), you sell 5,000 grey hull for 600,000 credits. This changes the stock index to 5,000; (119 credits to sell).

Thus it's possible to make a small profit as a pure trader, but you'll need to deal in bulk; thus, cargo ships.

When attempting to buy something which has a stock index of 0, the prices is 200% of base price (Due to special ordering), when attempting to sell something that has a stock index of 500,000, it is 25% the base price (Just imagine aliens using them for target practice since they have so much to get rid of).

Next, The largest economy breaker right now is recipes. So let's take a look at that.
1. NO MORE ORE RECIPES.
2. Recipes only use manufacturing components (Protein 40000A/SD2000 Capacitor/Paint/Glass Bottle/etc). None of this making hard hull from dirt nonsense.
3. Ore/Manufacturing components can only be sold. (NPC shops only, they have no stock index so is always at base price).
4. There are no recipes for manufacturing components.

So how do we get components if we can't buy them/make them? Mining and Recycling:

Every planet is generated with an X amount of ores, depending on the planet. Lock onto a planet to see how much ore is there.
For example: An Alien planet (purple one)might have:
- Exogen: 15214
- Extranium: 22141
- Octogen: 16415
- Orangutanium: 21141

There are two ways to mine a planet:
The first way is to simply fire your salvage cannons at a planet. Instead of taking away planet blocks, you'll start draining ore from the planet. This takes a long time and you can only mine up to 10% of the ores on a planet this way.

The second way is to use extractor blocks/extractor enhancers. Simply build them on a planet, power them, and they'll slowly extract ore out of the planet. Bigger extractors not only mine faster, but can also mine deeper; to extract 100% of all ores on the planet will take a pretty massive extractor. As the planet starts to run out of ore, the extraction rate slows.

The level of ore they extract depends on random chance, you'd get L1 ore 60% of the time all the way to getting L5 ore 0.005% of the time. I'll leave the specifics to you.

In either case, extracting ore just affects numerical data, there are no actual blocks removed from the planet so there's almost no lag.

Yes, this does mean that planets will eventually run out of ore; but how is that different than it is now? At least my way doesn't leave planets with ugly giant holes. If you need planet blocks, you can just buy them for 1 credit each at any shop after all.

Edit: On that note, please change ice planet rock to 1 credit LIKE EVERY OTHER PLANET TERRAIN BLOCK.

Of course, you can mine asteroids; so there's that.

Anywho, now you have ore, but you need components for recipes, so we move onto refining. Buy a refining recipe from a shop (i.e. Refine Extranium), throw it into a factory, add ore, and it'll automatically start turning ores into components. Higher level ore means more components; so a L1 ore might yield only 20 components where a L5 ore creates 50,000. Note that this means no more coarsing/upgrading recipes.

Finally, there's recycling. It's very inefficient though, so it's mostly a way to get rid of blocks you don't need. Simply buy the recycling recipe and put it into a factory. It takes 10 of any non-planet terrain block and turns it into 1 random component.

I believe that's it. This is in no way completely balanced; it's mostly a brainstorming session. Feel free to give your thoughts.

 

[War Dog]

Yeah, I have a planet miner too, and whenever I use it the server lags a full 15 minutes AFTER stopping.

It's because salvaging so many blocks strains the server. In the mining suggestion above there are no blocks being removed from the server so it's nowhere near as taxing.

 

[HerrColonel]

I like your idea about salvaging. But in your idea is the ore still present as block on the planet? That means the server still have to remove these blocks. Or it could be replaced by a value for each planet, and the mineral will no longer be placed inside the planet (your idea about extraction will replace this and we will no longer make ugly holes in the ground for a few minerals) this is perhaps your initial idea but i can not confirm it
I'm less sure about your factory suggestion, the actual recipes make no sense that's true, but it could be easier to set a recipe for every component. Like this we still can craft manufactured components like a processor with some "quartz-like" and metal, and need this (but not only) to build a weapon computer. This is the way I initially think this but I see your point about depending of the shop for your production. Why manufactured components would have no stock index? The production can't be limited by this yes, but traders (big-shapceship-cargo-nomad-players the way you described it) will see no interest about dealing these components. What can be more sweet than a smiling electronic merchant for your industry in times of needs? =)

But overall I support your suggestion

 

[War Dog]

When planet salvaging/extracting, it's just a value that gets drained, there's no removal of blocks at all. Ores will still exist on the planet, and while they can still be removed; it's mainly there for the purpose of flavor (and not wasting time messing around with the block spawning code).

As for components, different minerals give different components, but those components are consistent with that particular ore. (Say, the awesomite refinement recipe will always give Protein 2000b, SD3000 Delta Interface, and Black paint, higher level ores just give more of it)

Manufactured components have no stock index (and thus no variation in price). This will hopefully encourage players to trade components with other players. Furthermore, ore and components can't be bought at all; all the more reason those components are valuable to someone.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

I like the idea of mining ores without sucking up the blocks. It sure would make servers less laggy and planets more pretty
But for player-made entities salvage beams should still work with disappearing the blocks and getting them into the inventory. Maybe there could be two modes of work for salvage beams - extracting and recycling. Extracting would work only on planets/asteroids and would give player ore, while recycling would work on every entity and would give salvaged blocks (or some % of them).


There is planned update for mining/factories, probably getting rid of ores lvls, recipes for minerals/terrain blocks and closed cycles of recipes.
Also in the future we would most likely get limit of blocks available to being stored in plex storage/player inventory.

There is already mechanism changing the price of blocks depending on the supply of the shop.

Infinite cash and stock for shops and the same prices for all the shops of the same faction isn't good idea. They should be much less common and should have much more goods in them, but infinite supply, even if that means high prices imo wouldn't work very well. Also the same prices for all the shops of the same guild, it just wouldn't work well.w

 

[Incap]

 

[ltmauve]

Inventory adjustments: needed, but not in that form.
First, read this. This system would be implemented. (TL;DR: cargo stacking areas)
Plexstorages should still have the same number of slots, but with limited sizes (less than the player inventory size, and both of those would probably be set in the server.cfg file) By default, the cargo stack system would be more efficient than the plexstorage system.

There would also be a "transfer block." Link it with a storage block (or docking port) as the slave, and it will suck items from that storage item (or docked ship) to the storage unit (or docking port/docked ship) that it is slaved to. To get cargo to transfer from a mothership/station, slave the core to the transfer block. To get cargo to transfer to a mothership/station, slave the transfer block to the core, and it will transfer when linked. If you open it up and place blocks in the slots inside, it will only pull those types of blocks. It transfers at a fixed rate (1000 every five seconds). Connect it to enhancers to increase the rate.

 

[War Dog]

But for player-made entities salvage beams should still work with disappearing the blocks and getting them into the inventory.

Player salvage lasers work like they do now, no changes to them.

Maybe there could be two modes of work for salvage beams - extracting and recycling. Extracting would work only on planets/asteroids and would give player ore, while recycling would work on every entity and would give salvaged blocks (or some % of them).

I did play with the idea of some kind of toggle for salvage lasers, but decided against it. It'd probably end up lost behind some unknown menu option or something.

There is already mechanism changing the price of blocks depending on the supply of the shop.

There is, but it's set to be 100%-250% the base price; Anything you sell will ALWAYS be higher than the base price. I can make a block of L5 ore, buy it via catalog, then sell it to the shop at a profit no matter what. This is compounded with the fact that shops have little to no starting stock and their restock rate depends on having players constantly near them.

Infinite cash and stock for shops and the same prices for all the shops of the same faction isn't good idea. They should be much less common and should have much more goods in them, but infinite supply, even if that means high prices imo wouldn't work very well. Also the same prices for all the shops of the same guild, it just wouldn't work well.

If we didn't have infinite cash/stock it'd just be the same thing, flying from shop to shop selling/buying stuff. If every shop was different, the price changes would be meaningless as they would just find another shop to sell to.

These changes VASTLY reduce the amount credits on the server (less BP abuse, falling value for commonly sold blocks (hull), higher prices for blocks in high demand, nerfed recipes, increased competition from fellow players). So higher prices is a better deterrent here.

That being said, hard hull is still ridiculously expensive and should either be buffed or have its price slashed.

First, read this. This system would be implemented. (TL;DR: cargo stacking areas)

That is pretty cool, but how would player inventories be affected?

 

[ltmauve]

That is pretty cool, but how would player inventories be affected?

Woops yeah they would be reduced to a finite stack size per slot.

 

[aceface]

Just read through the whole article. StarMade would be so much fun if this ALL was implemented. I love the mining suggestion.

 

[Visitor]

Two things I would agree with in regards to the idea would be adjusting inventory (really, regular player can hold city-worth load of blocks which is kind of weird) and reforming mining.

The attempt at the previous, official balancing of economy was a step in good direction, but remains unfinished as long as it doesn't take into consideration acquisition of goods/sellable materials. It made it slightly harder to sell greater amounts of block with profit and to acquire same amounts of different construction blocks, but with hardly balanced strip-mining everything in sight it didn't do anything but mildly inconvenience players. That on top of encouraging the practice of planet-devouring strip-mining as it became the most time and resource-effective way of gathering bigger amounts of materials/vendor junk, further adding to problems like lag as people are still able to easily build dreadnoughts, they just now also are more pressed to drill through whole worlds beforehand.

 

[Ithirahad]

IMO, Ores should have to be extracted from the "Planet Core" (That magma-looking thing that's under planet cores) using some special extractor rig, and should slowly regenerate. Most ore-blocks should be removed from planet crust. Caves should occasionally have various types of crystals and the like, though. Oh, and salvage beams should only work on asteroids, factionless stations, and dead ships. There should be a special type of extractor for mining out of planets.

 

[1adog1]

I love the shop ideas, it's really annoying having all of these shops that look exactly the same and can only hold a certain amount of every material. I also love the idea for cargo ships, having your inventory run out mid-mining isn't too fun. I'm not sure I agree with the whole extractor setup though, just because it doesn't leave any physical evidence that the ore was mined. What if we had a similar system to what we had now, but instead of there being ore blocks, every naturally generated rock would have a certain chance, depending on what planet/asteroid type to drop each kind of ore, or just rock. Any feedback?

 

[War Dog]

I don't like the idea of regenerating or infinite planets since it's very easy to claim planets; but that may change depending on how the faction rework turns out. As it is, planets will have a large amount of ore, but it's slow and could take weeks to fully empty even with a large extractor due to falling efficiency over time.
As for crystals, it's rather pointless to have them on planets as they'd just get build-blocked. Put them on asteroids, and high level ore could be crystals anyway.

We also need giant asteroids and moons.

What if we had a similar system to what we had now, but instead of there being ore blocks, every naturally generated rock would have a certain chance, depending on what planet/asteroid type to drop each kind of ore, or just rock. Any feedback?

That was an idea I was throwing around, but with the inclusion of storage limits just where is all that (mostly) useless rock going to go? It'd be a pain to have to constantly empty out your extractor.

 

[1adog1]

That was an idea I was throwing around, but with the inclusion of storage limits just where is all that (mostly) useless rock going to go? It'd be a pain to have to constantly empty out your extractor.

That reminds me there does need to be more of a use for natural resources like rock, lava, wood, plants, etc. The manufacturing system is a start, but all that does is turn just about anything into just about anything. What about true crafting recipes that actually require specific natural resources?

 

[S-T-S]

+1 on this suggestion and the other implied suggestion buried within - I can seer an idea like this being the solution to the problem of balance in the market.

Please Schema... try and implement something of this High caliber!!!

 

[NeonSturm]

I don't like higher buy then sell prices! NO

Also: your suggestion is abuse-able:

If you don't want to pay as much, you buy up to 1 below index and then the other stuff.
If you want to get more money from sells, you sell up to 1 above index and then the rest.

Floating changes:

costBefore = 1.2
costAfter = 1.1
amount = 5000
credits = (costBefore+costAfter)/2 * amount.​

If you have limiting indexes (example: above 500'000: 1.2, below 1.0) then you should split a transaction that crosses an index into 2 transactions.

T1.amount = diff(stock, {buy=lower, sell=higher}index)
T1.cost = {buy=higher, sell=lower}
T2.amount = originalTransaction.amount -T1.amount
T2.cost = {buy=lower, sell=higher}

Don't execute, just continue splitting until it would produce a transaction with amount=0.
Then replace original with the other one and execute it.​

I like it if mining does not make a planet look destroyed.
What about making it more time-consuming the closer it comes to "completely drained".

Use above suggested shop formulas with:

transaction.

costBefore = 7 beams ticks per ore (= what one salvage cannon block produces in 7 seconds)
costAfter = 10000 beam ticks per ore
amount = numbers of spawned ores /10​

stock = amount -salvaged
index = stock -(number blocks * seconds)

sub-transaction 1 will be executed
sub-transaction 2 is the original for the next tick.​

I like limited cargo for Plex stores. 1 slot may be what a player can carry?
BUT: It should be a server option.
You should have infinite blocks of any type for designing a ship + an easy way to apply a design change, except you want it to be like space engineers.

 

[Proxima_Centauri]

Currently, the idea is that the relative ease of getting blocks to sell is balanced by the fact that you need to find shops to sell them to. That means spending all that time flying around looking for shops and then selling your stuff; finding more shops, selling your stuff, repeat ad nauseum.

I would like to point out that the "buy ship using blocks" method is far superior to the credits method, especially if you loathe shop-hopping as much as I do.

It's too bad that more servers don't use that system, though.

 

[NeonSturm]

I would like to point out that the "buy ship using blocks" method is far superior to the credits method, especially if you loathe shop-hopping as much as I do.

It's too bad that more servers don't use that system, though.

You would need more inventory slots or split pay transactions for most ships.

Or buy from a player-owned shop with unlimited storage (which btw has generally my like for RP) but that would forbid ships with terrain blocks.

 

[Proxima_Centauri]

You would need more inventory slots or split pay transactions for most ships.

This is indeed the one drawback of this system. However, it is relatively easy to leave out a few single-use blocks like faction modules and weapons computers until the very end, to free up more inventory space than the 45 currently allowed.

Or buy from a player-owned shop with unlimited storage (which btw has generally my like for RP) but that would forbid ships with terrain blocks.

Terrain blocks can all be acquired from planet mining, aside from water, red/grass rock terrain, and 2 of the 3 tree blocks. The fact that these blocks are unobtainable is (hopefully) just a symptom of the work-in-progress factory system.

There are drawbacks to both catalog systems that need to be addressed, but for someone looking for a better economy, the block system is superior.