Another Crafting Overhaul

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    Well, we do have a "new" crafting system, but its.... lets call it unintuitiv and hard to see through.

    To put some emphasis on that, here is a graph (graphs prove everything, remember that)

    Thanks to Neon_42 for the image

    So, I have been thinking on another overhaul for the crafting system:

    The basics:
    You have three categories of resources: Stones (The stuff asteroids are made of and that you always have in spades), metals (slightly less common, by "slightly" i mean "never enough") and crystal shards (rather rare).

    The current distinction between different types of these categories will be preserved (you still gather cinnabar and tekt, for example). The processing into capsules stays as well.
    The next step in the crafting process is were things start to change. Metal mesh only needs stone capsules (maybe rename them "generic metals") and is the base crafting material for everything else, every block needs a metal mesh. You can create grey hull 1:1 from it, colored hull needs a few more stone capsules (no, i dont care about logic). That means that hull is the cheapest thing to craft, which is ok because you need a lot of it. Other cheap, generic items also only need either metal mesh, stone capsules or a combination (combination would drift into convolution again though)

    Next in line is metal ore (rare metal ore?). These are made into plating, which is used to make metal mesh into more advanced items like reinforced hull, weapon blocks (not computers) and thrusters.

    And lastly, crystal capsules are made into circuits, used in conjunction with metal mesh and plating to build the most advanced items: Power generators, computers, shield blocks, effect blocks and others.

    Metal mesh is a constant 1 cost per block (it basically IS the block, just without the important parts in it), while the amount of plating and circuits goes up the less common the block becomes (power generators nedd less then weapon computers, for example).

    You need 3 types of the raw materials to make into their respective component. This ensures you still need to gather different materials while making shortages because you just cant find nacht ore less likely.

    Lastly, I propose a block that can break down blocks into components for those who prefer salvaging to fuel their foundries of war. It would only give (insert config value here)% of the components used in the construction back, but it would be a way to get rid off the stuff you dont want/have enough of already.

    So, instead of the big web of parts, capsules, raw material shortages, hulls, red dirt and confusion this would make it more streamlined and easy to get into. You can store components in the good knowledge that they will be useful in the future, you can rob everything from another faction without ending up with materials which you have no idea what they are used for (good luck digging throught the crafting web to find that) and the costs of making items is at least somewhat tied to its usefulness in game.
    (seriously, try constructing missile barrels in the current system, you will go mad...)

    edit: I suppose it would be possible to have things you need only ones or twice per ship (cores, bobby AIs, etc) require special resources, you know, create some scarcity. Scarcity is nice for straining interfaction relationships.
     
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    Crimson-Artist

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    awesome! i was actually just about to post something very similar to your system.

    I would've proposed that terrain blocks with the word "Rock" in their name be used to create metal mesh. You would stuff it into the micro factory with the ores and the cystals. The difference being that its much less efficient to make metal mesh with terrain blocks cuz theres so mud of it. say it takes 100 or maybe 1000 terrain rock blocks to make just 1 metal mesh. the idea being that every rock has trace amounts of iron in it. Theoretically you could gather up enough rocks to smelt a iron ingot but it would have to be an absurd amount of them.

    While we're on this why does it cost metal mesh to make glass? Shouldn't sand be used? the idea I'm trying to get at is that the terrain blocks need to be more useful. eating planets just to get the ore and crystal isn't that satisfying since we need to suck up like 100000 blocks just to get 1000 ore or crystal which really doesn't amount to much since it takes like 12 capsules just to make 1 metal mesh/crystal circuit.

    Thats 1.2 ore/crystals just to make the most basic crafting component. Thats like if in minecraft you need 2 tree barks in order to make 1 wood plank. This really needs to be looked at again
     
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    The recipes just need a bit of balancing. I'm sure it will be done eventually.
    Someone could always come up with some better recipes and post their block config file in the mean time.
     

    Criss

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    Calbiri knows that the crafting is off right now, he will be working on it. Other stuff might be more of a priority though.
     

    jayman38

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    While we're on this why does it cost metal mesh to make glass? Shouldn't sand be used?
    Keep in mind that the "glass" in this game isn't glass in the classic sense. It's hull material that probably has tightly bound electrons that don't interact with low-energy photons, similar to the way glass allows photons to transmit through. If it were conventional glass, it would have no armor value, and very low HP and would be completely not space-worthy. And I would be sad, because I like my viewports.
     

    Crimson-Artist

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    Keep in mind that the "glass" in this game isn't glass in the classic sense. It's hull material that probably has tightly bound electrons that don't interact with low-energy photons, similar to the way glass allows photons to transmit through. If it were conventional glass, it would have no armor value, and very low HP and would be completely not space-worthy. And I would be sad, because I like my viewports.
    then they shoulda kept calling it plextainium or what ever its name was before it was changed to glass. Through the Magic power of Science fiction you could make anything up to support your idea. for all we know ships use some kind of nano tech built into each block allowing for instantaneous contact based transmitting of electricity and data. which would explain why i can stick a shield block in a bunch of thrusters and it will not only not screw up my engines/shields but it will add to the overall stats of my ship. and all without any kind of complex wiring.

    The point is that i have tons of sand after i go astroid farming that will just sit in my storage chests until i feel like making a beach or something. I'd rather put it to use making me some glass
     
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    Maybe all terrain blocks can be refined into capusles (randomly chosen, but even distribution) at 100 blocks to 1 capsule (as opposed to ores/shards, which are 1 to 10 (but should be higher)
     
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    Make hull only require the new rocks. About 200 capsules per hull, but just of the rocks. They are easy to get, so nobody will complain once they realise that.

    Edit: For the rest I think that it should just be easier to remember what you need, and maybe have some links in the recipes, among other things of course.
     
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    Criss

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    I think crafting is going to get actual components again. Do not quote me on that. From what I heard it sounds like people would rather use mechanical bits instead of just crystals and meshes. Ye have spoken, and they have heard!
     
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    As long as the crystals and ores form the base for the new components (if they get added). I like them, and if you've played for a while you get used to the names. They actually are quite simple (the ore/crystal bit clarifies all the names that could cause confusion).
     
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    As long as the crystals and ores form the base for the new components (if they get added). I like them, and if you've played for a while you get used to the names. They actually are quite simple (the ore/crystal bit clarifies all the names that could cause confusion).
    They would stay, get a clarifier on what they are, and as long as you have 3 different ones, you can make the components. Easy, straightforward and it doesnt need a lot of development time, the biggest point on that would be to find out how much each block should cost, but hey, I am no game designer, I dont figure stuff out, I just throw it in the devs direction and hope he catches.
     

    jayman38

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    Block cost is something the community can figure out over the course of alpha testing. Suggestions will follow to help the devs figure out how to balance costs/prices. All we ask is that the costs are configurable so we can build and share our own versions of the economy. May the best configuration win (and end up implemented in the next release) to be refined again by the community.

    I like the idea of having an option of being able to build the same block from two different recipes. I think the suggestion specifically mentioned being able to use either this element or that element. That got me thinking: I wish we had a way to select which recipe (among multiple recipes) for a block that we wanted. For example, I would like to make a bunch of black hull. Now, I could find a bunch of Tekt (and I'm working on that), but it would be cool to buy black paint and use my already-significant supply of grey hull and have my factory get to work on painting all that grey hull black. The recipe system currently in place suggests that the color is an integral part of the block's molecular makeup. However, even in the future, we should have an option for repainting.

    I would also like to see a disassembly option that breaks blocks down into their components (at a loss) for reuse. Maybe have a server-configurable percentage of returned components. For any remainder blocks (for example, when a block is built with only one mesh), then there is that percentage chance that you might get that block type during recycling. That's something I miss about the old cubatom system. I only made a few blocks with that system, but it gave me freedom to recycle blocks I didn't use.

    Recycling idea example:
    On a server with the recycling rate set to 5%, and assuming that a hull block is made with 120 crystals and 1 mesh:
    After recycling a stack of 1000 hull blocks, you end up with 6000 crystals (random kinds would be fun, but maybe that's just me, and maybe randomness could be a configurable option) and an average of only about 50 meshes.
    That means that you only get a mesh back from about 1 in every 20 recycled hull blocks (5%).
     
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    I indeed think that you should be able to recycle things to get random ores/crystals. Why? Because when/if trees actually are able to grow, you could essentially make giant farms to get all your resources.
     
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    NeonSturm

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    I indeed think that you should be able to recycle things to get random ores/crystals. Why? Because when/if trees actually are able to grow, you could essentially make giant farms to get all your resources.
    Funny. Why? I like it.

    But I hate random stuff. If you would do 10'000 of A to x of B... but please no random stuff.
     
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    Maybe you could have trees that grow certain crystals/ores. Ore something else more space-like.
     
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    Maybe you could have trees that grow certain crystals/ores. Ore something else more space-like.
    Plant crystals, let crystals grow... might work, doesnt for stone and ores though. You can balance around that, but thats getting a bit off topic.
     
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    Not really. We're looking for improvements to crafting. And that is what this is.
    My soon-to-be suggestion:
    Add the ability for crystals to grow. You will need specific rock types and water. The rock types will be the same as the type of rocks the crystals can be found in on asteroids.

    How it works:
    You'll need to do something special with the resource first. Then you put that special something (because I don't know what yet) in the rock type it needs. It needs to have some water near it (5 m?) to grow. When it grows you will get more crystal in the same rock type you planted it in, so you will get the crystal and the rock.

    Recycle:
    There would be a recycling machine. If you were to put a rock type (that can be found on asteroids, and then also gotten when mining the growing crystals) in that machine, you will have a (25-50%?) chance to get an ore of the same type that can be found in that rock.
    This wouldn't be overpowered for two reasons:
    1) You only have a chance of getting the ore.
    2) IF you were to recycle every asteroid rock, fine, but you won't get a hull of that colour then.

    Please let me know what you think.
     

    jayman38

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    I partially agree with growing crystals. However, it needs to use up rocks to do so, so if you grow a block of crystal, it uses up a block of rock. After all, real crystal growth occurs when minerals are leached from rock by water and is deposited as the water flows. So basically, it's a conversion technique; rock is converted to crystal. The conversion ratio should probably be server-configurable, but 1:1 should be fine, since crystals are generally so much smaller than rock blocks.

    For recycling machines, if my idea for multiple recipies were implemented in the Macro Factories, this could be implemented in the existing macro factories by simply selecting the ore (or other product) you need, and then selecting the appropriate recipe (in this case, the recipe that uses up rocks.) You might not be able to use a random percentage, but you could set it so that you only get one ore for so many rock blocks. (E.g. 12 rock blocks to produce 1 ore)
     
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    Waaaaaay better than my idea. Thank you. I will definitely add that when I post it as suggestion in the next couple of hours or so.