A "Map Block" and Accompanying System

[PreparationsA-G]

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Though I originally posted this as a (rather lengthy) comment to a thread started by testkil (Link: http://starmadedock.net/threads/3d-map-improvements.353/#post-3374) a few days ago, I figured it was long and detailed, and original enough to post as its own thread (also I spent many hours on it and (seemingly) no one had viewed it).

Also, sorry this is so long, I didn't anticipate having this much to say when I first started this "comment." I added some pictures towards the end, if you wanna maybe wanna look at those to see if you're interested in reading the whole thing first (or not, up to you). I also added in some headings to chop it up into smaller bits and make it more readable.

(BTW the ideas I'm presenting here are somewhat a mash-up of original ideas and combinations of really good ideas I've heard for the map in other posts (on the old site). So if it sounds like I might have "borrowed" someone else's idea, it might be because I did :D)
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Actual Ideas Start HERE:

I think it would be really cool if the game had a "map block" of sorts.

This "map block" could maybe act as a central database or something for your ship's knowledge about where stuff is in the universe (which would be used to display things when using the map function on/in you're ship).
As the map does now, the "map block" would collect information as you traveled along in your space ship (unless perhaps you turned data collection off (maybe you could do that)) and store it in its internal database.

...Upload and Download Collected Information....
Perhaps you could "upload" and "download" information you've collected on your ships map block onto like a faction map block (same block, just one kept in a safe place by your faction for storing important whereabouts and locations of fleets, ships, and (perhaps) cool natural phenomena). This could make it important for a faction to have a homebase as it would be able to best protect their map block (containing all of their important knowledge of the universe) from being destroyed (which would be bad). After all, whats the fun in exploring the universe if you can't ever find anything again?

...A System for Setting-Up Sensor Arrays (To Collect Information)...
Perhaps also (to make it more customizable), this "map block" could function as a computer for attaching "sensor blocks" or (something like that) to. A ship with no map block or no sensor blocks attached to its "map block" would not collect data of nearby entities (unless entered manually). Depending on how you set up your "sensor array" you could have certain benefits in one of the 2 main areas of sensory detection. These (areas) being:

• Long-Range Sensors (or L.R.S.): This would be like what you see on Star Trek when they say, "We've picked up an M-class planet on long-range sensors." You would be able to detect things like stations, planets, and ships from reasonably farther out than you can now. However, detection of a ship would depend on the size and make-up of the (target) ship (i.e. if it's cloaked/jammed, or if it's moving). I'm thinking certain things would send up stronger or fainter "red flags" to your ship's Long-Range Sensors (the stronger the "flags," the more likely the (target) ship will be detected). The strength of your L.R.S. array and the (target-) ship's proximity to the edge of your sensor range would/could determine whether or not it is picked up, and if it is picked up, how accurate the data collected is. As things got closer to the edge of your LRS range they would become more likely to elude your sensors or be detected but with faulty information.

• Short-Range Sensors (or S.R.S.): This would be like that little box we have up in the corner of our screens now (that I at least always forget is there), but now, depending on how well you set up your "sensor array" it would detect/see a larger (or smaller) area around your ship. Perhaps it could also possibly detect missiles and display them in green, red, or stale-blue, depending on who fired them. Perhaps (if your S.R.S. is strong enough), it could even display what kind of missile they are by using an inside color indicating the type of missile, and an outlining color indicating the "team" of the missile, (the Radar thing in the corner may need to be made a wee bit bigger). These "Short-Range Sensors" would be available to all crewmembers currently manning a station on the ship (i.e. the guy in the weapons comp, the guy in the missile comp, the guys in the turrets, not the guy(s) takin' a nap in his(/their) quarters). Also, these new "Short-Range Sensors" would not pick up cloaked or jammed ships anymore (because that's rather dumb that they do that currently).

.....Multiple Types of "Sensor Blocks" (for Customization and Variation)..
However, I was also thinking that there could be multiple types of "sensor blocks" that could be attached to your "map block." Different types of "sensor blocks" would be better at some aspects of detecting stuff than others. For example a "radar block" might be really good at getting results quickly (instantaneous results), but then it might be more difficult to set up an accurate (as in "correct readings") array the larger the range (of the sensor array) is. Whereas a "Subspace Scanner Block" might take a few seconds (I'm thinkin like 3-30 (seconds) depending on the range) to get results but setting up accurate arrays with longer ranges would be both easier, and take up less space. With this system you would also be able to have multiple types of sensor blocks/arrays connected to one map block.

...Dedicating Arrays: Long-Range vs. Short-Range Sensors...
[ I'm thinkin' when you hook up "sensor blocks" to the "map block," you would pick whether you want each array (group) to go to the Long-Range Sensor Array or the Short-Range Sensor Array. Attaching things to the SRS will allow you to see it in your HUD (where the radar is now), but if you attach your arrays to the LRS then they will get an increased range (because now they're solely focused on far away things and aren't worrying about closer-up stuff) while maintaining their current accuracy level (aka accuracy will not be negatively affected by the increase in range (as it normally would).

This Could Bring About More Specialized Ships...:

Example I thought up:

Perhaps you want to know what the enemy has got over there at his base, but its protected by sectors upon sectors of his "airspace." With this system, you could set up a "fly-by" scout ship that is both fast and has an extensive radar-based (that means it detects stuff much faster) long-range sensor array (one that was accurate but at the cost of a lot of space on the ship (limiting the ship to just scouting capabilities)), and use it to fly (quickly) through their "airspace" (hopefully avoiding fire), to get just close enough for the Long-Range Sensors to pick up everything guarding their base, then fly back out (as fast as you can) back to safety. So long as your ship's "map block" survives you will have crucially valuable information on their base and its defenses that you can upload to your faction's map block. But only if the "map block" survives.

Long-Range, Space-Cruise Missiles:
With this new "master-slave" weapons system coming out, I had the thought that maybe this "map block" could be part of the new system (just maybe), and you could attach things to it (like missiles for example), and they would become "Long-Range, Space-Cruise Missiles" and you could use your map block to select a far away target to shoot (like really far away). If your long-range, space-cruise missile array (let's call it an LRSCM from now on) has the range then your enemies (or friends (if your that kinda guy)) are gunna have a fun surprise in store for them :D. Perhaps LRSCM's could be shot down. hmmm... Also (due to the distance) it may take a while for the LRSCM's to reach their targets (but they will still travel at a reasonable speed (no 5-25 kph space-cruise missiles (cuz that's totally lame )

..."Station Blocks" (For Your Resident Science Officer)..
-Perhaps there could also be certain "station-blocks" (as in you're manning that "station") that could be connected to the "map block" and could be manned by crew members to monitor these specific functions of the "map block" (i.e. You attach an "LRS Station Block" to your "map block", place it somewhere on the bridge, and then Crewman Daniels over there can stand next to it and tell you if he sees any blips). It would consist of a GUI that would show you what the ship's LRS is picking up, perhaps only taking up half the screen, while allowing the crewmember to look around while he's at the station. But he would have to stay put (he couldn't roam the ship)))

Artist's impression of what a Dave at a "station block" might look like:



Concept "half-HUD" for the "station block." This is what players using the "station blocks" would see. This one in particular would be for a "Long-Range Sensors Station Block." I personally think this would be really cool.

Also, I forgot to incorporate a 3-D element into the above image, but the real thing would have some kind of 3-D element to it.

Having this in the game would also make exploring fun, and useful (as of right now, it's not much of either). You could also potentially "sell" information with this set-up.



Anyway,
yeah.. Do you guys think this should be introduced as a system into the game (roughly)?

Keep in mind this is still just a "rough concept." I thought this up as I typed along. I also didn't decide on any specific mechanic/calculation for determining how certain sensor array set-ups will benefit your sensors in certain ways more than others. So if you guys have any suggestions for that, I would love to hear them.

Any other suggestions for making this "hypothetical system" better in any/every way I would much appreciate.

Hoping maybe someday we have something like this in the game,
-Prep :D

 

[NeonSturm]

In the 2D radar, each "dot" could have a bottom-down view of the ship with 1 pixel per 1/16|1/8 ship size.

I would approve the hight be visible. (This game is about 3D space, not 2D 20th century naval warfare)

Easily possible by showing a tangential line.
​

ship x,y,z = from yours;
target x,y,z = from radar dot;
relative x,y,z = target x,y,z - ship x,y,z;
temp(orary) = x*x+z*z;
// now floats
cos = sqrt(temp); temp = sqrt(temp+y*y);
cos = cos / temp;
sin = y / temp;
// now integers again.
final px = Pixels for drawing on radar.
p1 x,y = -ceil(sin*px), +ceil(cos*px);
p2 x,y = +ceil(sin*px), -ceil(cos*px);
tangent = p1 x,y .. p2 x,y

WARNING: Techno-babble paragraph ahead:

64 bit integers? or downward compatible for 32 bit?
We could have 1 bit for every sector in 2|4 sun systems or 2 bits for every sector in 1|2 sun systems in a single integer.
Or use a whole integer for different types of signatures in each sector.
If we can have 3..4 bits per frequency | signature-type, we could store 8|16 different signal strengths and 10.67..8|21.33..16 types. Enough?
With bit-operations like &, |, <<x, >>x, <<<x, >>>x, it is possible to calculate everything very fast (I guess about 6/3'000'000'000 seconds on a cpu or less per type and sector).​

 

[PreparationsA-G]

I think you had some "Techno-babble" before a bit too (I'm not terribly knowledgeable when it comes to computers). But, I'm very impressed with whatever it was that you said in that "code" box. Congrats you have earned +1 Respect Points from PreparationsA-G :D. I tried to follow along but I got a bit lost after I couldn't figure out what "temp" stood for and ruled out "temperature."

As for the dilemma with the "2-D long range sensor GUI," perhaps it could look pretty much the same except instead of a circle with a top-down view, it could have a sphere of the same radius located in the same place on the GUI. Perhaps you could use either the arrow keys or the mouse or something to pan your view around the sphere.

Perhaps there could be buttons to click (over on the side of the GUI) that would enable either ship-orientation-based panning (like you have in build mode) or (what I will call) "Universal Up"-based panning (like what you have when you go into third person mode in your ship).

New/Updated "Concept" of Half-HUD:

Thanks for the input tho

-Prep :D

 

[NeonSturm]

temp was for temporary. I am used to it because of temp+tmp dirs in your directory structure...
Maybe I should have written it out

As for the dilemma with the "2-D long range sensor GUI," perhaps it could look pretty much the same except instead of a circle with a top-down view, it could have a sphere of the same radius located in the same place on the GUI. Perhaps you could use either the arrow keys or the mouse or something to pan your view around the sphere.

I think 3D is not required. Just an indication of in which angle to your ship's orientation the target is (the tangential line)
3D would just increase cpu load and make it more time-consuming to extract informations from it.

Basically I had sin(us) = y and cos(inus) = x/z-diagonal distances and used for +cos +sin : -sin +cos to +sin -cos for a line in a right angle touching the sphere of "target distance" exactly at the target's position vertically.

 

[PreparationsA-G]

Mmm.. good point. I hadn't considered cpu usage, probably because I'm not terribly knowledgeable in that area.

Any ideas for the sensor blocks mechanic/calculation for what shapes and such would give boosts to which stats of the sensor grid/array?

As of right now, that seems to be where this idea/hypothetical system is the most lacking. I feel like it would be cool to have it be an original mechanic, but any ideas would be welcome.

-Prep :D

 

[ltmauve]

3d HUD/map - see elite for an example of a good one.
Long-range missiles - step one: giant thrustless ship. step two: add scanners that make the James Webb feel inadaquate. step three: giant block o' missiles. Step four: snipe your enemies at ranges that rival real-world, full-scale-planet cruise missiles. And that is why I oppose.

Mechanics of scan speed, range, and detail. Two types of blocks: a short range (call that LIDAR for now) and a long range (call that RADAR for now). Short range has detail increase much more than range. Long range has range increase more than detail. Speed is fairly constant with regard to both. In order to get a speed increase, you need multiple arrays.

Detail: Detail determines what you can tell about a sector. Partially overlapping a sector gives you part of the minimum detail of your array, in regards to sector information.
Ship get detail dependent on how far way and your detail.

What you get, in order from least amount of detail needed to most amount of detail needed.

1. Mass of everything in the sector
2. Mass of everything, by entity type, in the sector
3. Mass of everything, by entity type and faction, in the sector
4. Mass of everything, by entity type and faction, and entity counts for the sector
5. Sector information + Mass & name of ships
6. Sector information + Mass & name, HP of ships
   
7. Sector information + Mass & name, HP, e/sec of ships
   
8. Sector information + Mass & name, HP, e/sec, max energy of ships
   
9. Sector information + Mass & name, HP, e/sec, max energy, max shields of ships
   
10. Sector information + Mass & name, HP, e/sec, max energy, max shields, shield levels of ships
    
11. Sector information + Mass & name, HP, e/sec, max energy, max shields, shield levels, weapon block count of ships
    
12. Sector information + Mass & name, HP, e/sec, max energy, max shields, shield levels, weapon block count, turret block count of ships
    
13. Sector information + Mass & name, HP, e/sec, max energy, max shields, shield levels, weapon block count, turret block count, locations of specific block types (not savable at all. No numbers for this given either, just a general location. Also takes time to get.) of ships

The ship stats start out with a number accurate to within a power of ten (note that it will give you the range), and get better the more detail you have on the ship. Therefore, to get a lot of detail on a ship, you need to get close. Also, you would have to select a ship to scan it in detail.

 

[NeonSturm]

I would like different types of scanners too.

EM scanners would read FTL-signatures, shields and power.
Infra-red scanners would read active systems close to the hull (emission-strength stored on edits?)
Quantum-scanners would have more range and scan for FTL-signatures, mass or communication devices.

You could have integers per sector/entity with 4 bit for 8 different types of signals each. You could have signal-strength, interference-strength, distance-multiplicators on scanner-strength, ...

 

[PreparationsA-G]

I like the idea for the EM, Infra-red, and Quantum Scanners, and them having different abilities to scan different elements of the ship. This would make a new important (and really cool) thing to add to/include on new big ships now. Finally something other than tons of cannons and missiles, as each ship (especially big ones) would (want/) need to have arrays for all 3 types of scanners if they wanted to have good scanning capabilities, which would be imperative to having a ship that functions well as a all-around starship for living aboard. ahh.... ...

Sorry I had a bit of a moment there imagining what that would be like if you could actually "crew" and live on an actual starship in the game. (first we would need those "stasis pods" that someone suggested (where you get in there before you get off(line), and then when you get back on(line) you return to that point on the ship, not the world)).
This could add to tiering of ships as well, as smaller vessels like long-range escorts, (smaller) corvettes, or smallish cargo ships wouldn't have the room for multiple types of scanners. Maybe just one, maybe none at all.
But perhaps all these types of scanners you've suggested could still be connected to either long-range or short-range scanners, and if they were connected to long-range scanners they would still (all) get a (fairly significant) range boost....yeah.

@Itmauve :
The missile system I suggested would obviously have to be balanced, and it was only a thought I had. To fully integrate this "map block" (better name to be determined later), into the weapons system there would have to be a lot more thought put into it.

Hmm... Perhaps we could use the three-ish types of blocks that Neon suggested (or something similar) for the types of actual blocks, then for the long-range vs. short range sensors, you would just attach each array to your map block and designate it to be either part of the long-range, or short-range sensor array, and depending on your decision the arrays would receive boosts accordingly (the logic being that they are having their area of focus narrowed/designated and thus increasing their efficiency).

I like the idea of the SRS (Short-Range Sensors) being more "accuracy" centered, and the LRS (Long-Range Sensors) being more "range" focused (with both of them being relatively instantaneous in their scanning speed). But perhaps the "speed" characteristic could come in to play if you wanted to take a "Detailed Scan." And only "Detailed Scans" would yield really specific information about individual ships. Although you would still get readings from all ships (that you detect) on both long- and short-range sensors, these would be more basic readings like (perhaps), rough/ballpark mass estimate, absolute dimensions (this one shouldn't be too hard to obtain, I mean, you could get this one by counting, so it shouldn't be that hard for a specialized computer and sensor grid to figure it out (unless of course special measures are taken to prevent this being detected by the ship-maker)). If you have powerful/good sensors then they should be able to pick up more stuff without a "Detailed Scan" (name yet to-be-determined), but only to a certain extent. Full ship schematics and locations (on the ship) of all central computers would not be able to be obtained without a "Detailed Scan." A detailed scan could be done from (I'm thinking) Mid-ish to short-range, however, if done via LRS the scan will be less accurate, and may leave out certain elements that would normally be picked up (perhaps sometimes randomly so (especially when target is farther out). When performed via the SRS though, the scan will generally be fairly accurate (tho still depending on strenght of your SRS array). Completeness of the (detailed) scan, however, will be based on how many (and which) of the (currently 3) types of scanners you currently have arrays for on your ship. Depending on which ones you have, you will get certain types of results back from your scan. And depending on the distance of the target object from the edge of the utilized arrays' range, your information for these types of results will be more or less accurate.

Also, Itmauve, I like your levels of accuracy system. But I feel like it should be slightly more based on logic/realism, and not so much on game-balancing. (ie maybe turret block count shouldn't require the most accurate level of sensors, as they can be seen on the outside of the ship)(stuff like that).

Soo yeah,... How bout all that?

-Prep :D

P.S. NeonSturm Thanks for keepin these ideas in line with programming possibility. Good to know where we can and can't go with this idea :D

 

[rocketman221]

I think the long range missiles would be a bit OP. You would need to have some sort of defense system that could detect them and shoot them down. Maybe they could only be used to fight between station and planets.

 

[testkil]

okay this is good but i don't wand that my screen 50% of it is took it could be an button to display that

 

[NeonSturm]

Ships could outrun anti-stationary missiles with ease.

 

[PreparationsA-G]

Perhaps Anti-Space-Cruise Missile Systems could be a different kind of weapon attached to a map block. Perhaps a beam, or cannon weapon that would shoot them down using super-accurate fire. But like I said, the space-cruise missile thing was just a thought :D.
New Thought: Perhaps instead of Space-Cruise Missiles (as a "weapon system") there could instead be an option to either set a ship as a missile (or maybe incorporate a missile docking system to designate "ships" as "missiles" (in the eyes of the map block)), or maybe just connect a map block to a Bobby AI and then set certain coordinates for it to "Kamikaze" towards. Therefore your "space cruise missiles" would have to be made individually, and also (unless something is changed about the destructive abilities of dis-integrator blocks) they wouldn't be terribly effective on targets so much as fun/funny (perhaps they could be effective if you sent 100 of them? but then that might just be a server-****). Come to think of it, if/when autopilot becomes a part of the game. This could become a "thing" with it. So yeah... again.. just a thought

As to what testkil said (and it took me a while to figure out what he was saying), I suppose that there could be a button to hide the GUI for the "Station Blocks" (that's what the "concept GUI" is for in the second (and third) picture(s)), but since you wouldn't be doing anything else other than monitoring the long range sensor grid (while at that station), it would would kinda defeat the point of having it there. Perhaps you were under the impression that this would be on the pilot's screen? It wouldn't. The person seeing that would literally be just standing in front of a "station block" somewhere (presumably) on the bridge. Maybe though, there could be buttons to switch the GUI the left, right, top, or bottom half of the screen (for the player's convenience/preference).

Thanks for all the input; keep it comin',
-Preep (with 2 E's and an "EE" sound) :D