A look at shield strength and weapons.

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    If the problem is players warping too close, unloading and then leaving, I vote we fix it so they can't warp that close, or have 2 jumpdrives to support that tactic. I'm really confused by the OP of this, since the idea sounded like "If we make shields 10x greater, people will be more willing to pvp", and by the end I was even more confused about what was being said.

    What I do know is a weapon block gives 5 dps across all weapons. Missiles have the advantage of being able to break a lot of blocks with few groups (due to a multiple-group power nerf to prevent waffle cannons). I haven't played multiplayer in a while, so I don't know how abused this is, but maybe improving Point Defence slightly and adding in a minimum range to lock on missiles (they wouldn't lock) would help there?

    Another thing to note is you get 55 shields per shield capacitor, 11 times more shields then weapon dps per block. So a half weapons/half shield ship would last 11 seconds if fighting itself. I remember Calbiri talking about this in chat while he was building the original configs as well, so it was done purposely.

    I dunno, the game seems to be moving away from shield dependency. Problems with lock-on missile ambushes? Be more aware and invest in a Radar Jammer, that stuff is useful beyond belief. I don't expect them to warp close enough for Dumbfires to be an immediate issue, just Swarm missiles would seem to be an issue (but they are useless in most cases, because allies, so you can't really take this from them).

    If you're on a server that suffers from a great number of glass cannons using jump tactics, I'd recommend getting a flight buddy. I'm not even sure how jumpdrive ambushes work honestly, unless they use a Scanner first maybe? But even then, space is big. I question how they even find you to ambush.
    The 5dps per block works for all systems but nuke missiles which has far less (consider it a mistake when they can be balanced in other means).
    Problem is damage per shot. Normal missiles do 75 damage per shot for module added so it takes less missile blocks to get through capacitors. Using sniper missiles gives you a 3x damage per shot increase and using nukes gives you only a 2x increase (don't give me the block damage bull there are other thing they should do to balance nukes). See if it was nukes one shooting players there would be a vary good counter in using anti missile turrets but sniper missiles just move to fast and that's where the problem is. Thing is that I do like how fast they move sence it makes it feel like a MAC launcher so I really don't want them Nerf. Also If they were then it will be accepted that missiles radius need to be balance by making them weak, which is not a good argument. I want to have it where all missiles (including nukes) will have 5dps and not be damage Nerf because of radius (radius argument wont work as well when HP update comes out). So here is a list of what I think the balance should be for weapons.

    Missiles: All missiles get 5dps per module added to system. No more reduced dps due to block destruction (HP system should fix that anyways). Energy to fire weapon is still 10x the damage per shot.

    To reduce damage to shields without decreasing missile damage itself, missiles should no longer be effected by ion or overdrive effects. BUT to still have diversity in weapons combos, punch through and piercing will now have unique effects on missiles.

    Also having missile grids are ok if they are small but create problems when they are too large. (used to much as a bypass to limited radius)
    So maybe to balance this doing missile grids will have more of a power drain then it dose for cannons or beams. Also depending on the type of support you could have more but only when you go past a set amount of missiles.

    (only number of missiles lunched per shoot count (#barrels) ) Get large power increase on top of the normal increase if..
    Missile/beams: past 10 missiles to one computer.
    Missile: past 20 missiles to one computer.
    Missile/cannon: may not have and extra large increase but will still have the normal (due to lower damage/hit)
    Missile/missile: Will depend on number of missile fired and the increase will be smaller. (Missiles > 100?) (increases there to mostly stop crashing) (number of barrels will matter more so 100 missiles from 100 barrels will use more energy then 100 missiles from 5 barrels).
    Missile/damage pulse: Will have incredible increase to power use if more then one missile per computer is used. Increase may be exponential to number of missiles. This means it is a vary bad idea to have a grid of nukes to one computer. (use more then one computer).


    Missile/punch through:
    aka shaped explosion.
    Missile area radius divided by 3 but depth radius is 3x.
    Damage vs armor is calculated like it is for cannon/punch through.

    For example: lets say you hit a cube ship in the front (z-axis). x and y axis radius is divided by 3 and z-axis radius is 3x.

    This should mean that punch through would be good if you want a deeper but smaller hole. Also like anti matter cannons armor would greatly reduce the damage (armor would have large impact when we get the HP update).


    Missile/piercing: aka drill missiles.
    Missile on hit will travel in a straight line a set amount of block into the ship before exploding.
    Block distance traveled will depend on the %piercing.
    Missile will still be effected by shield when it explodes on the inside.
    Damage reduction agents shields and armor bypass is the same as for anti matter cannons.
    (If shield capacity is 10x and there is damage bleed after certain point. (Thinking Bleed can't out right destroy ship but can damage it.)
    Bleed damage or effects is greatly increased due to missile exploding in hull (No bleed through if shields are still full.))

    So interesting weapon combo because it cant do anything if it is at 100% but there is no damage to shields. But if shield bleed is a thing and shields are damaged beyond the point where it would take effect then they can be great at killing crew or damaging systems. Also when shield are down having a missile blow up in the ship could be crippling. There is a cache beside the shield thing. It still travels at missile speeds and in a straight line after it hits so a fast turning ship could evade when its in hull and by the time it blows its outside the ship again. Also useless agents fighters as it just past right through them and explodes quite a few blocks away. Don't have any idea atm of what block distance it should travel when it makes contact so that's something I would leave up to Devs to balance.

    (not done yet)
    Missile/damage pulse: aka NUKES.
    A few updates ago missiles radius was reduced and Nuke radius was increased. To balance the radius increase the Devs nerf the dps of nukes on the bases of block destruction potently that all missiles have.

    So first bit is that like the rest of the missiles the dps is back to 5.
    Radius stays the same as it is now.
    Nukes no longer lock on.(they are dumb fired to help balance radius)
    Nukes will explode at max distance.
    If Nukes are destroyed by anti missile defense they still explode.
    Nukes can do friendly fire to your ship.
    If Nukes hit a ship they have a 3 second delay before they explode at the spot they hit. (this is to allow fighters a chance to escape the blast).
    Nukes will still be slower then max speed.
    When endanger of being hit or in the blast of a nuke a unique way point and warning will occur so you could evade.
    Nukes will be the first targeted missiles by anti missile systems.
    Nukes would get increased health (to be balanced by Devs) but would have a much larger hit box so anti missile systems can easily hit them.
    If Nukes explode in open space then the damage from them would decrease with distance.

    Due to there increases radius the nuke would likely have greater bleed damage then other weapons. Also yes I know that at the damage they can do it could perhaps mean that a 4 million block ship could still die in one volley to another 4 million block ship even if shields where increased by 10x. The difference here would be in the speed and range of the nuke. Even a Titan should be able to doge if the nuke is fired at max range due to it being dumb fired, the warning, and speed. The weapons that are doing the one shoot KO is sniper missiles. Also the Nukes are easily countered by anti missile defense which should have no problem hitting a nuke with a bigger hit box.
    For nukes to be effective in this set up bombers would be the ship of choice. The bombers could lunch a weaker nuke at point blank range and run before it blows. Even a few module could be enof to get a good damage one but the amount of power storage to use the weapon would be where there are problems.
    (also maybe make it so making a nuke grid is much more power draining than it is with other weapons)
    Larger ship nukes would almost have to be shoot when the opponent is distracted but would be devastating if they hit (big if). This means that if a big ship nuke explodes in a Fleet combat situation than it could be devastating for the other fleet but could also mean that you destroy part of your fleet.

    I have Ideas for beams and cannons too but I will add them on a latter date.

    All the above are suggestions or what I hope to see in missiles. What is put down is assuming that the HP update makes armor a proper defense and that shields are increased to 10x (maybe lower depending on how good armor is) and that after a set amount of shield damage there is a balanced damage (or system) bleed through that would help encourage a high shield capacity. Also taking into account that block space is not the only limiting factor that could be applied so don't say increased shields means more weapons or effects for that can be balanced through power usage.
     
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    What I do know is a weapon block gives 5 dps across all weapons. Missiles have the advantage of being able to break a lot of blocks with few groups (due to a multiple-group power nerf to prevent waffle cannons). I haven't played multiplayer in a while, so I don't know how abused this is, but maybe improving Point Defence slightly and adding in a minimum range to lock on missiles (they wouldn't lock) would help there?
    The big issue with PD is the AI accuracy seems to vary between extremes, either stormtrooper level or 100% accurate. Generally on these servers move speed is upped which ALSO increases missile speed..so there is a very small window where the PD can actually hit (almost point blank range) and where they otherwise endlessly whiff..so an accuracy increase to PD dedicated turrets would probably help
     
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    I would recommend you put this in a suggestion of its own. It's worthy of its own thread.
    Om part of the resion is that I also use the shield thing in this form as a bases to allow for the weapons ideas. Going to add more on cannon and beams later that would make them better at shield than missiles. Also plan to talk about damage pulse primary which needs some attention. (possible Idea of self destruct that could destroy large area? :D)

    And when its done I may put it into its own suggestion. But I would have to include some of the shield ideas after I talk about the weapons but by then maybe I will have more ideas on how to balance shields. So I may make a weapons shield form mk 2. :D
     
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    NeonSturm

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    Imagine you as a soldier encounter a tank.

    You have tank-breaking ammo which fires fluid, hot copper and burn the drivers, but with a limited range of 1km (0.67 miles AFAIR).
    You also have a missile which is more expensive and valuable but hits exactly the spot you target even beyond 3km (2 miles).
    Now-a-day bullets which travel over 1km (2/3 mile) have an impact delay of 1.5 .. 2 (Mach 1..2) seconds and you need to aim 9m above the target.​

    Which would you use if you can choose?

    I'd use the fluid copper guns at very short range and missiles to take out IMPORTANT targets from afar (like gun turrets)

    (Note: don't mind the ranges, in vacuum they would be higher)
     
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    Imagine you as a soldier encounter a tank.

    You have tank-breaking ammo which fires fluid, hot copper and burn the drivers, but with a limited range of 1km (0.67 miles AFAIR).
    You also have a missile which is more expensive and valuable but hits exactly the spot you target even beyond 3km (2 miles).
    Now-a-day bullets which travel over 1km (2/3 mile) have an impact delay of 1.5 .. 2 (Mach 1..2) seconds and you need to aim 9m above the target.​

    Which would you use if you can choose?

    I'd use the fluid copper guns at very short range and missiles to take out IMPORTANT targets from afar (like gun turrets)

    (Note: don't mind the ranges, in vacuum they would be higher)
    Ok I'm confused about this.
     
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    makes perfect sense to me.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1422120385,1422120305][/DOUBLEPOST]You guys are all crying foul when an enemy uses a better tactic than you. Perhaps some of you should rely more on your diplomacy than your fighting skills in this dynamic PVP universe.
     
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    You guys are all crying foul when an enemy uses a better tactic than you.
    I see, so the griefer moves to 4.5 kilometers from you and without warning, fires on you for two million damage. The first indication you have that you are in a fight is that you are dead. And this you call, 'better tactics'.
     
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    I see, so the griefer moves to 4.5 kilometers from you and without warning, fires on you for two million damage. The first indication you have that you are in a fight is that you are dead. And this you call, 'better tactics'.
    I hate when that happens, but it's inevitable.

    Something that might help is having an audible ping when a manned ship appears in range, and to have red lights and audible beeps when a missile is tracking you. hopefully that gives you enough time to do something. I would also like to see flashing indicators on missiles that are locked on you, plus countermeasures. These are all things that are used by fighter games with tracking missiles. It might make dumb-fire missiles more useful considering they wouldn't show cause the same indicators, but I've been suggesting these changes for months to no avail.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1422122197,1422122106][/DOUBLEPOST]I personally make it a habit of keeping my radar jammers on when I'm in a dangerous area.
     
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    I hate when that happens, but it's inevitable.
    The griefer uncorking for two million, that is indeed inevitable in a game that permits PvP. What is NOT inevitable is that you wind up instantly killed. That is the result of a deliberate design decision to keep shields sufficiently weak as to deliberately ALLOW a griefer to one shot kill you. The whole point of this thread is about making it NOT inevitable.
     
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    The griefer uncorking for two million, that is indeed inevitable in a game that permits PvP. What is NOT inevitable is that you wind up instantly killed. That is the result of a deliberate design decision to keep shields sufficiently weak as to deliberately ALLOW a griefer to one shot kill you. The whole point of this thread is about making it NOT inevitable.
    As long as there is PVP, there will be snipers.

    A proper bounty system that gets the space police involved would be a step in the right direction as well.

    A more immediate solution would be to play on a whitelist server. They actively attempt to keep trolls out.
     

    Lecic

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    The griefer uncorking for two million, that is indeed inevitable in a game that permits PvP. What is NOT inevitable is that you wind up instantly killed. That is the result of a deliberate design decision to keep shields sufficiently weak as to deliberately ALLOW a griefer to one shot kill you. The whole point of this thread is about making it NOT inevitable.
    If shields are multiplied by ten, you'll just have people launching missiles for 20 million to counter it.

    We need better point defense AI, really. Worried that it'd make massive missile shotguns look more viable, though.
     

    CyberTao

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    Another thing to point out is 1-shot styled ships like that rely on power tanks, which increase exponentially with larger groups, meaning they wont have to make their ships 10x bigger to match your shields, might only be 7x. People do like to play the extremes sometimes as well, so people will still build large sniper ships, just making them larger.

    Servers that increase the server speed need to also adjust the weapon speeds. The game 's weapons and AI was set up for 75km/h, hence why it was default. Makes sense that some things wont work right (like PD) when you take it beyond that without also adjusting the other stats.
     

    NeonSturm

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    Nothing bad about snipers, but shield+ion should be stronger if you build a dedicated tank.

    > Peoples going for pure-mega-sniper should require 50s (at least) to regain that power.
    > Firing own guns should also temporarily decrease the jump charge maximum - the bigger the gun and smaller the jump array, the more %.


    I am waiting for a heat sink system to make especially weapons and shields be dependent on hull surface ( use mass^(2/3) to not promote any design over others )

    > Then ships would not be x^3 but just x^2 in durability with a downside in mass per effective block.
    > Of-course optional