A concept to fundementally change warpgate functionality.

[Jaaskinal]

It seems like most people agree, warpgates are under used, and have a lot of disadvantages. Most of these people seem to believe that the fundamental issue with warpgates is the line on the map that shows both end-points of the gate. People that think this way seem to also believe that removing the visual aspect of warpgates from the galaxy map. I don't believe that this would fix warpgates, because I believe there's an underlying issue of which we are merely seeing the symptoms of, and that we are attempting to fix the symptoms rather than the cause.



I believe that the core flaw with warpgates is their need for two stations, or planets. I believe this is an issue because:

-It's boring.
---You have to travel out to your destination first thing.
---You have to build two warpgates. I believe it takes exponentially more energy and patience to do the same task multiple times.
---Filling blueprints can be boring and hand-building gates on servers can be painful.
---A lot of people, if not - most, - play the game for fun. Boring stuff typically isn't the most fun thing to do. Unless you can provide a desirable outcome, monotony leads to boredom, boredom leads to quitting.

-There can only be one destination.
---Wherever your gate leads, is wherever it leads. Only if you build a completely new station can you have a new destination.
---If you do make a new station, you either have to cannibalize your old station and travel, under your own power, all the way back to the other gate, or you can just build a totally new gate from scratch. Both of these options are boring.
---Most people don't go to one destination that's really far away a whole ton. The only real exception to this rule, that is seemingly becoming less and less popular, is spawn. Other than that, the universe is so dense and evenly distributed with everything you could ever want, that you can get nearly everything withing two jumps of distance. Typically, when you want to travel long distances, it is not because you want to travel somewhere over and over again, it's because you want to travel to one specific thing likely only once or twice.
---With all of this in mind, it's not a worthy investment to set up a gate to go near your home, because at most it will take you ninety seconds to get where you want to go, but neither is it a worthy investment to set it up far from your home, because you likely wont be visiting often enough to care. You'll only be going far on occasion, and you'll be going a multitude of different places.



Now that I've bitched about this whole thing a ton, I figure I should say what I think the solution is.

Pretty simple really: have warpgates send you wherever you want.

It's stupid, right? Like, how would that even work?
Well, you'd go through the gate, you set the coords you want to go through with the navigation menu, and you pop out the other end. Possibly if you have a waypoint loaded, it could just send you to the waypoint instead of opening the menu. So yeah, it's pretty stupidly simple.

But, how would that work?
Well, going through gates is already a game mechanic. Rather than have the gate remember where the other end of it is, and making it use the change sector command, it'd just use the already existing navigation menu (which can already be linked to other menu's - see fleets) to see where you want to go. After that, it'd just use the change sector command exactly like it already does, but with a bit more flexibility.

But wouldn't that be unbalanced? Being able to travel across the whole galaxy?
If it were free, yes. Currently warpgates require more power based on the mass of the ship going through it. I'd think you could factor distance to destination in as well. To limit distance there could either be a hard cap (snooze fest) or power cost could exponentially rise based off of distance requested, effectively making bigger, more powerful stations more useful.

Wouldn't that be hard on servers?
Have you seen the current preferred method of travel.
Copy Pastable Logic Jump Drive
New sector every four seconds? Yeesh. You either load 126 sectors to go across 1000, or you load two. Take your pick.

...Would it be difficult to implement?
I doubt it. Like how I explained how it works, everything for this suggestion already exists in the game. There's not really any new mechanic here in terms of code. I'm not sure though, I'm not really a coder, I dabble in small things, but I don't do anything worth-while. There may be some difficulties of which I just don't know.


TL;DR: Two-point warpgates are annoying. Make gates send you wherever. Balance power cost with mass and distance in mind. This would be much easier on servers than the way people travel currently. It should (maybe) be easy to implement.


EDIT 1: Another concept just discussed in chat, going into battle with this would be sorta cheesy. To prevent that, warping should drop your shields and your cloak. That way, whoever warps into battle is at a significant disadvantage off the bat.

EDIT 2: There have been a few more ideas about functionality in the comments for this thread. Notable ones include; reduced power cost for gate to gate travel, gates being able to 're-call' players who are out in deep space ( long jump to gate, ) have inhibitors interact with this system ( on departure and on arrival, ) time required for travel ( to combat warping out of combat, require players ships to sit still doing nothing for short periods of time to use the gate, ) have where ships are about to appear marked on nav to disadvantage players warping into combat, increasing damage to ships going through gates ( discourages warping out of combat. )

Some idea's I really like out of those are the re-calls, time requirements and having warping ships show up on nav.

For re-calling, it would likely function the same as going through the gate, but rather than having the gate send you to wherever, you would be sent from wherever back to the gate. Possibly there could be an option on the galaxy map when you hover over stations and planets with gates to do this, or some other functionality could be added. To prevent players from using this simply to warp to enemy stations, it should probably factor in faction association, allowing only own faction by default, and having options for allies, neutrals and enemies.

Time requirements seem like a good idea to me, mostly on the re-call side, but slightly on the gate side as well. I don't know how long a wait time should be, and I really don't like quoting exact figures in suggestions (there's no real reason to most of the time,) but I feel like distance should be a contributing factor in wait time. Obviously it'd take a lot less time to warp somewhere, but I don't think it should always be instantaneous. Time requirements would also allow for nav icons/effects to be displayed where ships are about to warp to, giving an advantage to players that have ships warping in on them.

To encourage combat, I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to show warps on the galaxy map. That way, a careful observer could see (if not exactly - roughly) where people are warping to. This idea somewhat comes from the ability to see active trade routes on the galaxy map, which hopefully someday can be intercepted. I really don't know about this one though, curious to see what other people think.

 

[CyberTao]

 

[Thalanor]

I agree in general, but make these two additions that imho are essential.

1. You cannot directly travel within X sectors of a space station not belonging to your own faction
2. Whenever you use the warpgate, all your weapons will be unable to fire for 30 seconds upon arrival

Both of these additions would aim to clarify what, in my view, the role of Warpgates and Jumpdrives is/should be:

Warpgates: Very long distance travel conveniently from a station of yours. Not usable as direct combat initiation or as tactical tool.
Jumpdrives: Mobile independent FTL solution that can to a limited extend be used for tactical purposes (except fleeing the battle).

 

[NeonSturm]

TL;DR: Two-point warpgates are annoying. Make gates send you wherever. Balance power cost with mass and distance in mind. This would be much easier on servers than the way people travel currently. It should (maybe) be easy to implement.

EDIT 1: Another concept just discussed in chat, going into battle with this would be sorta cheesy. To prevent that, warping should drop your shields and your cloak. That way, whoever warps into battle is at a significant disadvantage off the bat.

But:

• What if a second gate on the destination could be required if the destination is jump-inhibited /claimed (by a ship or station?)
• What if a second gate at the destination could pay a part of the energy cost and reduce the energy-per-distance factor?
• What if it works not from a gate to open space, but vice versa - the gate catches your ship's FTL-jump?

What is your opinion to: TG gate-network - A setup by NeonSturm?

I voted "no" because your suggestion would be too similar to jump-drives.
But I would change my mind if you would suggest a cheap gate-frame that can be dropped anyway to go back home from some destination.

But I would really like some sort of remote control for connecting stations. Open the gate-computer and see a list of stations with gates + their names and sectors.

 

[Jaaskinal]

What if a second gate on the destination could be required if the destination is jump-inhibited /claimed (by a ship or station?)

I'm unsure how to answer that myself, but I like the idea someone else had, which is to just change the sector of the player warping in randomly, within a certain distance. Almost as though the inhibitor/disruption forced you out of the warp before your destination.

What if a second gate at the destination could pay a part of the energy cost and reduce the energy-per-distance factor?

That's really up to other people. Schine would either decide that the power cost could be shared, or that it must be dealt with up front. For reasons of checking loaded/unloaded stations, I'd imagine it'd be easier if only the initial station mattered.

What if it works not from a gate to open space, but vice versa - the gate catches your ship's FTL-jump?

That would be a really interesting mechanic to add.

Your suggestion is pretty interesting, but I'm unsure as to how it would effect the game. I mean, the suggestion itself plays with it's mechanics, but I'd be interested in seeing how it would play out with the rest of the game.

 

[Gonzalo]

i think the idea is a bit weird because it goes against my preconcieved notions to how a warpgate should behave but i think it is good at the same time

 

[Sachys]

I think its a good base for an idea - maybe even a higher tier warpgate system than the current one, but... I dont think power is enough of a cost to use this form of "megajump" - as power is incredibly cheap to manufacture.
Beyond that, an additional layer to long distance travel has my vote.

 

[NeonSturm]

I think its a good base for an idea - maybe even a higher tier warpgate system than the current one, but... I dont think power is enough of a cost to use this form of "megajump" - as power is incredibly cheap to manufacture.
Beyond that, an additional layer to long distance travel has my vote.

It's not power, but power capacity (which needs capacitor blocks) which you gonna pay.

 

[Exozen]

I'm unsure if I like this or not, but something about Warp Gates definately needs to change.

 

[NeonSturm]

I'm unsure how to answer that myself, but I like the idea someone else had, which is to just change the sector of the player warping in randomly, within a certain distance. Almost as though the inhibitor/disruption forced you out of the warp before your destination.

I see gates as more powerful than jump inhibitors as long as

1. they hae an opposite end
2. they are inside the jump-inhibited zone (run synchron with the inhibitor)

That's really up to other people. Schine would either decide that the power cost could be shared, or that it must be dealt with up front. For reasons of checking loaded/unloaded stations, I'd imagine it'd be easier if only the initial station mattered.

Perhaps there is an easy solution:

1. If you try to jump into a sector with another gate, it has to check for inhibitors anyway - then it could also check for the power-value of the receiving gate.
2. The destination has to be loaded anyway. If you load it before the jump like a directly neighbouring sector, you can easily check for inhibitors or gates there.

What if it works not from a gate to open space, but vice versa - the gate catches your ship's FTL-jump?

That would be a really interesting mechanic to add.

Your suggestion is pretty interesting, but I'm unsure as to how it would effect the game. I mean, the suggestion itself plays with it's mechanics, but I'd be interested in seeing how it would play out with the rest of the game.

It solves the combat-escape or combat-jump-in issue as long as chain-drive escapes are solved.

It allows quick travel, but only with the agreement of the destination.
It could act as a jump-inhibitor which instead of inhibiting sets your destination to itself, but this should only work with the consent of the player who jumps (he might "feel" that his jump is somehow manipulated and cancels it after linking the destination before jumping, but once the destination is jump-mechanically linked, it cannot be manipulated anymore).

Makes it more difficult (compared to your suggestion) to quickly intercept intruders in your territory, but in turn it allows always a quick retreat to your home before you log off or when your inventory is full of salvaged things.

I think the good part about this inverse is that it works with more consent of the destination.

 

[Sachys]

It's not power, but power capacity (which needs capacitor blocks) which you gonna pay.

Still too cheap

 

[Dire Venom]

Still too cheap

Power cost would be exponential as distance increases, however power storage blocks are very easy to produce.
Spamming a few million of them wouldn't take a lot of resources

I agree there should be additional costs, not sure what they could be though

 

[Sachys]

Power cost would be exponential as distance increases, however power storage blocks are very easy to produce.
Spamming a few million of them wouldn't take a lot of resources

I agree there should be additional costs, not sure what they could be though

The souls of failed early access developers?! O____o

 

[Winterhome]

Perhaps give warpgates dramatically longer ranges when linked, and perhaps lower power costs to warp per mass. Aside from that, I like it. Turn them into genuinely viable super jumps.

I think that this should also be a server config option, though. There are servers out there which would be negatively effected by implementing "go wherever" warpgates - mostly those that have admin-built warpgate networks to encourage PVP at certain locations.

 

[nightrune]

It might be cool to have jump inhibitors act as a power use multiplier when used around a warp gate as well. Effectively blockading it except for smaller ships..

So number of modules in the system increases jump power cost by some ratio of the modules.

 

[Lukwan]

Two-point warpgates are annoying.

Most of these people seem to believe that the fundamental issue with warpgates is the line on the map that shows both end-points of the gate.

Well, you'd go through the gate, you set the coords you want to go through with the navigation menu, and you pop out the other end. Possibly if you have a waypoint loaded, it could just send you to the waypoint instead of opening the menu. So yeah, it's pretty stupidly simple.

Great idea! Kinda had to hunt for the gold though. :p

 

[NeonSturm]

Can we make a summary of gate-ideas?

1. they could act like a light-tower so your ship does not jump in circles while jumping greater distances (or into planets) like when a person is walking through an empty desert.
   • longer jumps dependent on distance to a gate
2. they need a beacon at the end-point.
   • Nothing fancy, it can be a ship, a small station or a planet - just some object which is not FTL-inhibited.
   • Other gates could work even if FTL-inhibited anyway
3. they should have 1/4 distance while not linked (server-configurable.
4. they cost a lot of power if unlinked
5. they could have a delay before being usable

And don't forget that we could spawn 135x135 gates in hub-systems of the Trade-Guild so that players don't need to setup any gates but large ones.

It would could reduce a gate-network's size over long distances drastically because you only need 2 gates to connect to the TG network for every station.​

 

[MacThule]

Power cost would be exponential as distance increases, however power storage blocks are very easy to produce.
Spamming a few million of them wouldn't take a lot of resources

I agree there should be additional costs, not sure what they could be though

I don't think so. Exponential increase factoring mass+range is a very effective softcap. He isn't talking about a gentle curve like the current power generation softcap. The curve can be squared or even cubed outright, with no mitigation/softening of the curve.

So if it costs... (e.g.) 20M power (a substantial, but accessible and fairly cheap amount) to send that 100K ship [or fleet?] 10 systems out, to send the same entity 20 systems out would cost 8B power per activation. 8B power capacity is theoretically possible, but completely prohibitive and not terribly cheap to do. "Relatively cheap," arguably perhaps, compared to the same number of blocks of advanced armor, but relative cost is not at question here - it would still take days for a faction to source and construct such a gate.

So with the right exponential power curve, you would quickly find yourself needing Billion+ power capacitors to gate large ships or long distances.

Then there's the other balancing factor... time to recharge... recharging an 8B power capacitor at 2M e/sec would take over 1 hour 6 minutes. So time to recoup is a powerful balance, because the more massive the gate capacitor, the longer that gate will be rendered inoperable after each time it is maxed out. Docked reactors can mitigate this, as can docking your ships to the gate while waiting for it to charge, but it is significant, and at this point you're looking at a massive engineering endeavor and extensive time sourcing to get one spawned in. I think that is a fit cost for such an ability.

It may end up being a tech that's not terribly economical for sending anything more than 50K-100K mass anywhere very distant at all, and that would be fine. Hopefully the dev team would leave some aspect of the power consumption formula as a server variable.

I rather like the idea. I've seen games where gates work this way. It is completely suitable and would make gates properly useful, especially with limitations such coming out at zero power, shields down, jammers/cloakers down, weapons all set to cooldown as well as not being able to jump within a sector of any station, star or planet plate (such a constraint also eases implementation by removing the need to code handling for jumping a 30-ship fleet onto a large, multi-sector station).
[doublepost=1471453377,1471452885][/doublepost]Another potential balance could be to restrict gate systems from functioning on stations that have any other non-essential sub-systems on them. Say it's because the technology is so delicate that having a factory, shipyard or undeathinator on the same station would create too much interference. Now mega-gates are not only costly, but vulnerable, because no faction is going to waste their HB protection on something they can't even respawn to or do work at.

 

[NeonSturm]

I'd like if you can get a ship with 68 gate blocks for a 16x16 gate to an open destination.
This ship would build a gate jump back with a cheap 2-point connection.
In your main station, you hop into a 9x9x18 exploration ship which can now use this cheap connection to build a bigger gate around your first or explore the space around to figure out if you want to build a bigger gate.

This means that transferring about 200 blocks in a ship to the maximum 2-point gate distance should be possible.

 

[Erth Paradine]

Maybe just get rid of warpgates, and adapt the existing wormholes to fill this gap (e.g. a wormhole computer that must be programmed with your destination, and also have adequate power to "focus" your jump). Having chokepoints in the game would certainly add an interesting twist for interactivity. Interdictors would also be quite nifty.