Make Warp Gate routes not visible for everyone

[jorgekorke]

One problem that I'm sure most of the people are facing is that how easy it is to find out about a warp gate network. You could simply check on galaxy map and go to the links, making your enemies' life more difficult at a very cheap price, should you be at war or simply being a griefer.

IMO, That feature of showing warp gate links should be togglable. You could make it in a way that either the route is visible to the public, or only visible to your faction.

 

[Megacrafter127]

*spams the hell out of the like and agree buttons*

 

[SkylordLuke]

One problem that I'm sure most of the people are facing is that how easy it is to find out about a warp gate network. You could simply check on galaxy map and go to the links, making your enemies' life more difficult at a very cheap price, should you be at war or simply being a griefer.

IMO, That feature of showing warp gate links should be togglable. You could make it in a way that either the route is visible to the public, or only visible to your faction.

yup,i agree with this one,its wierd that everyone can see your warpgates (even enemies)
which can be devastating in wars

 

[Matt_Bradock]

Completely agreed. I had my warp gates trashed far too often. It's ridiculous that they can be used by anyone and can be seen by anyone. Setting up warp gates require quite the investments already, knowing how much the gate computer and modules, then the power necessary to operate it, cost. It should be visible to/useable by only allies and own faction.

 

[SkylordLuke]

agreed,now

Completely agreed. I had my warp gates trashed far too often. It's ridiculous that they can be used by anyone and can be seen by anyone. Setting up warp gates require quite the investments already, knowing how much the gate computer and modules, then the power necessary to operate it, cost. It should be visible to/useable by only allies and own faction.

now that you said that,woah.. it is a huge investment!!! imagine working for weeks to set up your warp gate,only to be destroyed in few hours because everyone knows where it is,welp..

 

[aceface]

DEVS, PLS!
Also, credulo maybe you could make an edit and say that you can tick the option in the faction module of a station to make it visible on the map? just for server admins etc who want to have protected routes you know.

 

[Alias72]

I agree that the current warp-gate system is flawed.
I am not as confident that visible warp gates do not have a limited utility.
Perhaps warp gates that have Radar Jammers become invisible on the map unless you have the scanning power to reveal them.
This would enable enemy factions to find and destroy your warp gates only if they suspect it is in the area.
This also adds utility to the scanning system and the Radar Jammer. A protracted engagement might occur where one team is trying to find the location of a warp gate they suspect is in the area.

 

[Mered4]

agreed,now

now that you said that,woah.. it is a huge investment!!! imagine working for weeks to set up your warp gate,only to be destroyed in few hours because everyone knows where it is,welp..

I've had this happen three times already on mfleet. Spend three hours on the network, lose it in 15 minutes to people who are bored and want to kill something while I take a lunch break.

 

[BlackZero500]

I agree too. They should be only usable by the faction and its friends if its activated for that, and it should be waaay more durable, if not even indistructable. Maybe like the homebase, it becomes destructable if you have a negative score or something.

 

[Alias72]

I do not feel that warp gates should be faction locked nor do I feel that Gates should be indestructible (or even disproportionately armored.) I feel that much of the frustration regarding gates stems from there vulnerability.

If the gates are not visible it will be highly difficult to locate them and only a dedicated enemy could do so. This ensures a degree of safety regarding who can use a warp gate without removing the hazards of operating a hole in space exiting in front of your main base. If the gate is not visible it is not liable to destruction the same way a shining beacon on the map is.


If gates become invisible then both of these other revisions become liabilities. A gate that is difficult to destroy and invisible on the map will be extremely dangerous to the opponent on the other side of the gate. Because gates allow attacks within enemy space and because they are already difficult to find they should not also be difficult to remove otherwise they become devastating tools against an opposing faction. By placing an indestructible invisible gateway in enemy space you prevent them from securing a frontier and force them to distribute their forces everywhere.

The same logic works against faction locking the gates. If a faction builds a gate in enemy space to launch an offensive then there MUST be repercussions of some form to that faction. otherwise there is no drawback to building invasion gates in enemy space. If an enemy spends 3 hours scanning and searching their space for your gate and somehow is lucky enough to find it then they should be able to use that against you.


Allow me to present an example. Faction A builds a gate to attack Faction B's rear. The gate is not overly expensive and invalidates hours of defensive posturing. Faction B is then forced to find the source of raids behind there lines and remove it. Faction B spends hours searching for a gate that does not appear on the map and finally, with extreme difficulty, succeeds.

If the gate is hard to destroy:
Faction B attempts to muster a vast battlefleet to destroy the offending warp gate. In an attempt to preserve their portal Faction A sends ships to defend it. Faction B is forced to split their fire between Faction A's ships and the gate they need to destroy to prevent reinforcements. Faction B triumphs with great cost and has only arrived where they started, minus a good portion of their fleet.

If the gate is faction locked:
Faction A knows that Faction B cannot invade through he portal and is faced with two options. They can muster a force to defend the gate, hoping that Faction B will be forced to split their fire between Faction A's ships and the gate; or they can begin to attack the more vulnerable parts of Faction B's systems knowing that Faction B will have to divert resources into destroying the gate.

A strong gate preoccupies Faction B's forces and a faction locked gate gives faction A freedom to choose a course of action.

If the gate is merely invisible than it allows for rapid movement but at a cost to both sides. Faction B will either be forced to destroy it if it is a liability or use it against Faction A if they are powerful. Faction A (the Faction who built the gate) must either destroy the gate in self defense or defend it against intrusion. This balances the gate and ensures that it will only exist if both sides wish it to, but due to its stealth does not make it a target for random griefing.

 

[SkylordLuke]

I do not feel that warp gates should be faction locked nor do I feel that Gates should be indestructible (or even disproportionately armored.) I feel that much of the frustration regarding gates stems from there vulnerability.

If the gates are not visible it will be highly difficult to locate them and only a dedicated enemy could do so. This ensures a degree of safety regarding who can use a warp gate without removing the hazards of operating a hole in space exiting in front of your main base. If the gate is not visible it is not liable to destruction the same way a shining beacon on the map is.


If gates become invisible then both of these other revisions become liabilities. A gate that is difficult to destroy and invisible on the map will be extremely dangerous to the opponent on the other side of the gate. Because gates allow attacks within enemy space and because they are already difficult to find they should not also be difficult to remove otherwise they become devastating tools against an opposing faction. By placing an indestructible invisible gateway in enemy space you prevent them from securing a frontier and force them to distribute their forces everywhere.

The same logic works against faction locking the gates. If a faction builds a gate in enemy space to launch an offensive then there MUST be repercussions of some form to that faction. otherwise there is no drawback to building invasion gates in enemy space. If an enemy spends 3 hours scanning and searching their space for your gate and somehow is lucky enough to find it then they should be able to use that against you.


Allow me to present an example. Faction A builds a gate to attack Faction B's rear. The gate is not overly expensive and invalidates hours of defensive posturing. Faction B is then forced to find the source of raids behind there lines and remove it. Faction B spends hours searching for a gate that does not appear on the map and finally, with extreme difficulty, succeeds.

If the gate is hard to destroy:
Faction B attempts to muster a vast battlefleet to destroy the offending warp gate. In an attempt to preserve their portal Faction A sends ships to defend it. Faction B is forced to split their fire between Faction A's ships and the gate they need to destroy to prevent reinforcements. Faction B triumphs with great cost and has only arrived where they started, minus a good portion of their fleet.

If the gate is faction locked:
Faction A knows that Faction B cannot invade through he portal and is faced with two options. They can muster a force to defend the gate, hoping that Faction B will be forced to split their fire between Faction A's ships and the gate; or they can begin to attack the more vulnerable parts of Faction B's systems knowing that Faction B will have to divert resources into destroying the gate.

A strong gate preoccupies Faction B's forces and a faction locked gate gives faction A freedom to choose a course of action.

If the gate is merely invisible than it allows for rapid movement but at a cost to both sides. Faction B will either be forced to destroy it if it is a liability or use it against Faction A if they are powerful. Faction A (the Faction who built the gate) must either destroy the gate in self defense or defend it against intrusion. This balances the gate and ensures that it will only exist if both sides wish it to, but due to its stealth does not make it a target for random griefing.

dude,if someone manages to build a gate big enough to do a reasonable big attack in enemy space,i will kill myself right now lol.
Even if someone ever manages to build one in enemy space,you can scan them with scanners,and they will show up on your navigation tab.
#gategate

 

[Alias72]

*Below this post is a more concise and forward explanation of my thinking. I suggest that be read instead. I sincerely apologize for the double post but believe it is for the benefit of the community in this case.

I was merely stating that making the gates invisible corrects the issue. Making gates overly strong or faction linked removes risk entirely and would lead to a situation where gates could be used to take advantage. There should be some risk to building gates; their invisibility is offset by their weakness and potential misuse. A gate can be captured or destroyed reversing the advantage you hoped to gain. Once gates are invisible on the map they will be significantly harder to locate and so are unlikely to be discovered except by large effort; gates can still be found, however, so neither side can draw an unfair advantage.

ultimately a game ceases to be fun when one side has run out of options. gates should not give benefits without consequence as that would give the controlling player significant options while restricting the target players. specifically:

faction locking ensures the owner is not vulnerable to reprisal so they can not be harmed by the gate; wort case would be a nullification of their investment. Strong gates force target players to spend large resources first to find and then destroy a gate. Combined this ensures a gate will only ever benefit the controller. Neither of these suggestions fairly balance risk and reward.

Invisible gates DO balance risk and reward. The gate is expensive. It is difficult but not impossible to find. the result is that your investment may go up in smoke but it is unlikely a small force, say a lone griefer, could manage it.[DOUBLEPOST=1418078625,1418075592][/DOUBLEPOST]I shall break this into two points as I am arguing two different suggestions. In both cases I am arguing that the suggestion unfairly benefits one side and does not create an inherit stability. I believe that if a choice is not inherently beneficial or sacrificial then its benefits will be determined by circumstances and skill instead of faulty mechanics or unbalance.

Suggestion 1: Gates should only be usable by the faction controlling them.
I believe this suggestion creates an unbalance; because a gate cannot be used against the creating faction it provides no risk for them. If the faction so desired they could place a gate beside their opponents most important world and if it were ever discovered they would face no direct consequences.



Suggestion 2: Gates should be very strong; Strong enough that it would require significant effort to remove them.
This suggestion is unbalanced for a more subtle indirect reason. The creator of a gate will place that gate such that it benefits them; therefore the very existence of the gate is disproportionately beneficial to the creator. The more resources that must be spent to destroy a gate the greater the gates effect on other players. A gate is a significant investment; a balance is achieved when the cost to build the gate and the advantage the gate gives is balanced by the resources taken to destroy it. If significant resources are taken to destroy a gate then the effort required to destroy it begins to equal the cost in making the gate. This leads to the situation where it becomes beneficial to build gates simply to distract enemy resources.

 

[BlackZero500]

Ok i see what you mean. Well ok indistructible or more durable Warp Gates are a bad idea indeed, but i cant see why it should not be lockable? I mean its my gate, so i should be able to decide who can jump through it. If not faction lock, see if this option fits more to your opinion:
The Gate is locked through a lock. You have to have a key to use the gate. Not a key you have to type or anything, a faction key. A random generated key generated when a faction is created. And you could get those jumpkeys by getting it straight from the guild leader or ones with enough permission to do so, or from any guild member whose ship you destroy. after destruction you could scan the wreck and get the key or something.

I dont know if its possible to make that happen, but its just ridiculous that i cant decide who can pass trhough my warp gate. i mean its no wormhole, its a machine which has to be activated. why cant i add permissions to it?
Farther i have to say, it would be better to have to activate the gate instead of just flying through. Like that, you have to lock on the gate and use an assigned key for warpjumps, than the gate activates and you fly through it. the activation could be made visible through an effect where the Inner gate would turn blue or something gatelike.

And for the problem with the attacks through gates, how about you cant build a gate inside of enemy territory. i mean you could build one a few sectors away, but then you could destroy it. If its not made more durable it shouldnt be that hard to destroy one gate.

 

[Mered4]

Ok i see what you mean. Well ok indistructible or more durable Warp Gates are a bad idea indeed, but i cant see why it should not be lockable? I mean its my gate, so i should be able to decide who can jump through it. If not faction lock, see if this option fits more to your opinion:
The Gate is locked through a lock. You have to have a key to use the gate. Not a key you have to type or anything, a faction key. A random generated key generated when a faction is created. And you could get those jumpkeys by getting it straight from the guild leader or ones with enough permission to do so, or from any guild member whose ship you destroy. after destruction you could scan the wreck and get the key or something.

I dont know if its possible to make that happen, but its just ridiculous that i cant decide who can pass trhough my warp gate. i mean its no wormhole, its a machine which has to be activated. why cant i add permissions to it?
Farther i have to say, it would be better to have to activate the gate instead of just flying through. Like that, you have to lock on the gate and use an assigned key for warpjumps, than the gate activates and you fly through it. the activation could be made visible through an effect where the Inner gate would turn blue or something gatelike.

And for the problem with the attacks through gates, how about you cant build a gate inside of enemy territory. i mean you could build one a few sectors away, but then you could destroy it. If its not made more durable it shouldnt be that hard to destroy one gate.

You can already faction lock gates with doors. It's just insanely hard to do this with large gates because of the lag involved.

 

[BlackZero500]

But wont you get stuck warping to a closed gate? And how close the gate behind you?

 

[Alias72]

You have built the gate the same way you have built the games economy, its politics, and its technology. Though the gate physically manifests as your possession it is also a part of the environment. It drastically changes gameplay in the region around it by connecting distant sectors directly. To lock a gate (a random key is as good as a solid lock for players without decryption software) Is to create two different universes for different players.

the ring, steel walls, and lighting are physical creations of your design; but these are only part of what makes a gate. A gate is also the regions it connects to. A gate that is not connected is just a metal shell its value measured in tons of steel and Jules of energy. A connected gate has value proportional to the places that it connects.

I suppose what I am trying to say is this. You may be right; that the warp gate is nothing more than your property and you have every right to control it. on the other hand you do not own space, and though you have connected two regions of space with your property, the connection is not yours alone.

On a less philosophical note: The gate should be a risk if improperly managed. you can stop traffic through your gate by investing in defenses and your opponent can open traffic with warships. if the gate is faction locked then there is no risk to you even if you lack the ability to protect your own property. Possession is paramount not ownership. just because you own something (legally ethically) does not mean, in this game, that you should possess it. Otherwise why go to war?

 

[BlackZero500]

Well youre right. I dont own space, so they are allowed to fly to my place with thrusters or even with jump drives, if they know where I am. But my gate is mine. And of what use is a defence if you just have to fly through the gate? Maybe a few cannons hit the ship, but they wouldnt even pierce the shields. And they could always destroy the faction block to make it usable. Its just ridiculus that your enemy would be able to just use your gates. Its like not locking, or even closing your door at home because its not fair for thieves.

 

[Ithirahad]

Well youre right. I dont own space, so they are allowed to fly to my place with thrusters or even with jump drives, if they know where I am. But my gate is mine. And of what use is a defence if you just have to fly through the gate? Maybe a few cannons hit the ship, but they wouldnt even pierce the shields. And they could always destroy the faction block to make it usable. Its just ridiculus that your enemy would be able to just use your gates. Its like not locking, or even closing your door at home because its not fair for thieves.

If you can't buy or build a lock for your door (Both of which are quite achievable in SM) then you'll just have to deal with things coming through your door. Which, in a non-combat situation, isn't a bad thing if they need to travel to an area nearby...

 

[Alias72]

Additionally you should not place an inter-dimensional gateway beside your most important world. It would be wiser to place it a little ways away from your most important sectors to prevent unintended consequences. The open gate must be defended with ships and intelligently placed. A faction locked gate has no drawbacks from your point and is not a continuous investment.

you pay for the gate once but the benefit you receive is constant. The ability for an enemy to use your gate forces you to invest in defense.

 

[blurb357]

yep I remember "FUCK THE FUCKING TE FUCKERS FUCKING HELL THEY DESTROYED THE FUCKING WARPGATE..."

XD