"Balance changes" causing problems with effects

    ResonKinetic

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    From what I'm seeing, some code was goofed up.

    I have a ship that takes up one million power with the main cannons without effects.

    With effects, the power used was around four or five million.

    Now, after the new update, it takes WAY more power to have effects. In an attempt to compensate, I removed some effect blocks until I was down to %80 efficiency, and yet it it still took way over five million in power to fire.

    I should also mention that jump drives now take an eternity to charge for me now. gg
     
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    Yeah a couple of the balance changes are kinda weird. Like Missiles+Beams consuming quadruple the amount of power at 100%. I understand that damage and range was adjusted however that's still... a LOT of power.
     
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    Yeah honestly I don't know what the devs were thinking, putting the values so ridiculously high. It's not just a matter of that ships have to be refitted, because that can be handled just fine, it's that the changes have brought about some really poor balances. It was much better the way it was before.

    The range for long-range beam missiles has been increased, but the cost for beam has pretty much shot through the roof and thus it's not worth using anymore. Traditional cannon weapons still seem to be the only staple weapon to use.
     

    ResonKinetic

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    Like in every previous version of SM. Looks like cannons are favored :p
    I'm hoping it's not always like this. Like, I know Schema doesn't intend for it to be this way(?) but it seems to happen either way.
     
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    Things I noticed:

    1. Beams got a noticeable buff. I still use them as shield zappers but they're much better at that now
    2. Cannons are cannons
    3. Missiles with beam are nerved hardcore. Other missile types weren't too affected
    4. lol pulsators
     
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    beams would be lovely to use but they consume way too much power for the crappy range they have. there is no reason to use them when cannons are superior in every way. the hitscan capability of beams just isnt worth it given the drawbacks.

    calbiri really needs to do some changes.
     
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    I think a buff to 750m range would be more effective. It'd give them a little bit of viability; the range differential isn't as steep.
     
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    There is a bug that makes effects add double damage their intended damage at 100% slave. Thus 1:1:1 weapons are 25% more power full than any 1:0:0 1:1:0 or 1:0:1 weapons of identical size. This makes them consume more power. Damage is linked directly to power, if your weapon deals 1000 damage it consumes 10000 power. Beams are different as they consume 25 E per damage point to balance out their hit-scan nature. Although they may need to be looked at because they do have 3 nerfs on them compared to cannons, reduced range, reduced DPS and increased power consumption.
     
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    -snibbedy snab-

    Your math is wrong for beams at least. Config is double what the energy consumption should be with those numbers you listed. They should be costing 250.

    Unless I did the math wrong in which case give me the equation pls.

    If it was up to me? I'd lessen the DPS and range nerfs. It makes balance sense that they'd do less damage and have worse range than cannons; just...not on the scale that they are now.
     
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    Don't get why beams would have a shorter range than cannons. <-<
    Burst shot would lose power faster than a high density beam. Beam should cost more energy, have higher range, do good damage at the end of intended range and bad at a certain treshold below it. At long ranges, even an insta shot has difficulty hitting, at short ranges, it just doesn't transfer as much damage. Also, long charge time.
    Making it a staple for sniping ships, but giving the midfield and short range to burst lasers'n missiles.
     
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    Don't get why beams would have a shorter range than cannons. <-<
    Burst shot would lose power faster than a high density beam. Beam should cost more energy, have higher range, do good damage at the end of intended range and bad at a certain treshold below it. At long ranges, even an insta shot has difficulty hitting, at short ranges, it just doesn't transfer as much damage. Also, long charge time.
    Making it a staple for sniping ships, but giving the midfield and short range to burst lasers'n missiles.
    I didn't want to suggest this because I didn't think anyone else would like this but YES

    Damage scaling with range of impact would be the bomb.com for beams, and would make sense. Beam dispersal would reach a critical point at a certain range where they would no longer work.
     
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    -snibbedy snab-

    .
    -SCHNIPPEN SCHNAPPEN-

    I also think the values are too damn high! Seriously, I get that we need balance, but this ain't balance!

    Mind you, at least you can say it WILL be changed, devs listen. But I think the current system is encouraging gigantism.
     
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    Mind you, at least you can say it WILL be changed, devs listen. But I think the current system is encouraging gigantism.
    As long as weapons continue to scale linearly (which they do, confirmed by Lancake and other testers in the bug tracker), Gigantism will always be a crippling gameplay issue. I've argued with others such as Calbiri and Mr.Furb about eliminating it, but they refused every time. Not to be arrogant, but they simply don't understand the nature of combat as we do.
     

    MrFURB

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    Heyyo, folks!

    As long as weapons continue to scale linearly (which they do, confirmed by Lancake and other testers in the bug tracker), Gigantism will always be a crippling gameplay issue. I've argued with others such as Calbiri and Mr.Furb about eliminating it, but they refused every time. Not to be arrogant, but they simply don't understand the nature of combat as we do.
    Linear scaling on weapons was kept due to the non-linear scaling of power acting as a limiter. The biggest issue with offense vs. defense balance I've seen is that power capacity oriented ships can almost invariably one or two-shot enemies of a similar size because it's possible to dump a billion energy into offense all at once and it isn't possible to match that type of burst power with defensive tools. Shield capacity blocks add... Usually less than 50 shields (500 energy's worth of shielding vs weapon fire) scaling down based on how many you've got. Slowly, but still.

    Compared to a weapon block's average 5 DPS that's not too bad. Ten seconds of protection? Rarely is that the actual case. Other factors such as ion/overdrive, pulse, and base rearm speed allow each weapon block to out scale the protection of shielding in single volleys, their only limiting factor being power.

    Power is the enabler of the problem as far as I can tell. Power capacity blocks have a base 1000 power multiplied by (number of units in the group)^1.05. With weapons taking 10 energy per damage point, that gives each power capacitor a value of over 100 shields. Scaling up. Paired with a high reload or specialized anti-shield weapon, you can make a combined power/weapon system more effective than a power/shield system ten times it's mass.

    While weapons and their counterpart defenses are technically scaled against each other DPS-wise, there are way too many multiplicative bonuses for weapons that shields can't take advantage of.

    A quick'n'dirty solution would be to simply increase base shield capacity to take this into account but that would negatively effect the cases where offense vs defense is actually going as planned, such as... Er, any weapon with a reload anywhere under ten seconds.

    A concept I'm toying around with is a change in Ion's defensive behavior to base it off of infinitely scaling power capacity instead of power regen. Instead of hardening your shields by a % (extra protection based on how many shields you already have) it turns a large portion of damage against shields into damage against your power. This allows defenses to tap into power pools in the same way that weapon can. Exact numbers are impossible to come up with until there's actual tests on the matter, but I'd imagine it being somewhere close to this:


    <DefensiveBasePowerConsumption>5</DefensiveBasePowerConsumption> <!-- Power cost per block per second, % bonus is based on the system/ship mass size ratio -->
    <DefensiveBaseMultiplicator>12</DefensiveBaseMultiplicator> <!-- multiplied with effect block count -->
    <DefensiveEffectType>STATUS_SHIELD_LINK</DefensiveEffectType>
    <EffectConnectDescription>Does extra damage against shields,\nbut less against blocks</EffectConnectDescription>
    <EffectIgnoresShields>false</EffectIgnoresShields>
    <DefensiveEffectCapPercent>0.8</DefensiveEffectCapPercent>
    <DefensiveEffectEfficiency>15</DefensiveEffectEfficieny> <!-- Power cost per point of damage reduced -->

    What all the jumbled mess above is stating is that at 100% efficiency, this would take up about 8% of your ship's total blocks and cost 5 energy per second per block. It would cause 80% of the damage dealt to your shields to be absorbed at the cost of 15 power per damage point.

    Even if your power systems are inferior to your opponent's you can still dent their shields with enough pew pew. It'll just buy them time. Trying to use this against someone who outmatches you will only lead to you being completely helpless as your power drops to 0. Burst weapons will still have catastrophic effects, but will no longer immediately end fights.

    Hopefully.

    On the subject of gigantism, I personally like that there's huge ships. I don't like when they're everywhere or when they're the only option. A proper economy takes care of one of those, and a difference in stealth play and maneuverability should take care of the other. It's not satisfactory yet, but I'm sure that continued pressure in the right direction will get us there eventually.
     
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    The issue of gigantism could be easily solved if there was an actual in-game economy and shipbuilding requirements. Make it require ships to be built in shipyard docks, and the bigger the ship, the longer it takes to be built. That's how it should be.

    Big ships are in plentiful abundance now and are the only thing worth using because
    A. They're exponentially stronger in terms of firepower compared to all smaller ships; mass of a ship vs its size naturally scales exponentially (the Enterprise D for example is twice as long as the 1701 Constitution Enterprise, yet has 18 times its mass)
    B. Credits are extremely easy to acquire
    C. The ships are very easy to acquire with a simple stop at a shop or the faction base and a purchase of the entire ship instantly

    C is the big problem that looms over all others. The acquisition of blueprinted ships is far too easy. We NEED a shipyard mechanic that requires ships to be built over time! and also make credits harder to acquire at the same time. this way, people can have both equal opportunities to choose to have their ships built at a shipyard either based on actual physical blocks in stock, or built at the value of their total block-worth in credits.
     
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    and i'm still eagerly awaiting a hotfix.
    Me too. Also, I noticed you rated my post optimistic (and yet there was nothing optimistic about it). The only reason I'm complaining about salvage is because there is no way to change the power usage per module part of it in the config. Sure, I can lower the power usage, but I can't make it only apply to 1 beam anymore, nor can I change how much power gets added after an initial value.

    This game seriously is the next bug* thing, and I really like it a lot, but when they change something for the worse, and I can't change that change, whether it would be intended or not, it really ruins the whole "customise everything" feel to the game and the game in general.

    *was supposed to be "big".
     
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    This game seriously is the next bug thing
    this is the most hilarious unintentional typo pun i have ever seen this entire year. it's funny because the game is always experiencing lots of bugs xD