nerfing, a cautionary tale

[jath]

Nerfing is a common and sometimes necessary reaction to unbalanced play in a multi player game, but it's often overused. There are many games that have simply been ruined by nerfing too much. It's usually better to give the weaker opposing mechanic(s) a buff instead.

There have been many games that were killed by too much nerfing. Sometimes, the nerf ruins many player's favorite part of the game.

The rest of this thread is for nerfs that have ruined games.


Just saying, be careful when nerfing stuff. Especially to the extent overdrive was nerfed today.

 

[lupoCani]

Overdrive was nerfed? Care to fill me in?

 

[Lancake]

All effects got "nerfed". There was a bug where you needed 10 times less effect blocks to get the same % which was a giant buff for any ship out there. The fix for this bug isn't correct so now it is the other way around. Now you need 10 times more blocks than you should need for the same % which is compared to the pre bug fix a factor of 100 which it got nerfed with.

EDIT: I'm not sure now atm...The config says the fix is wrong but the graph made by calbiri, assuming it uses % of ship blocks (and not mass) shows the fix is correct.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

It is a percentage of blocks now? It was indeed supposed to be mass, at least that's the way it was. Percentage of blocks indeed is a bit too big of a nerf.

 

[Lancake]

I don't know for sure but the graph calbiri released: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0MnwBNCQAIztex.png:large claims that it is % of ship required to be modules to achieve max bonus. so 10% would indeed be 10% of your ship total block count although the config says it is about the mass.

 

[Megacrafter127]

I don't know for sure but the graph calbiri released: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0MnwBNCQAIztex.png:large claims that it is % of ship required to be modules to achieve max bonus. so 10% would indeed be 10% of your ship total block count although the config says it is about the mass.

Currently all blocks have the same mass, thus a percentage of blocks is a percentage of mass and vice-versa.

 

[Fishbreath]

Currently all blocks have the same mass, thus a percentage of blocks is a percentage of mass and vice-versa.

All blocks have 0.1 mass. Effects are ten times weaker against block count than against mass.

 

[Megacrafter127]

All blocks have 0.1 mass. Effects are ten times weaker against block count than against mass.

Currently all blocks have the same mass, thus a percentage of blocks is a percentage of mass and vice-versa.

 

[Fishbreath]

Which is self-evidently true, and altogether tangential in response to a question about which of the numbers a specific percentage is based on.

 

[Lancake]

Currently all blocks have the same mass, thus a percentage of blocks is a percentage of mass and vice-versa.

The same percentage taken from the mass and taken from the block count will result in 2 different numbers that are off with a factor of 10. I hope you realize that having to use 10 times more blocks in 1 case compared to the other will result in some unwanted balance issues.

If you read the bug report about it you'll notice that I fully understand how percentages work. What you say is true but I don't really see what it had to do with my post.

 

[Megacrafter127]

The same percentage taken from the mass and taken from the block count will result in 2 different numbers that are off with a factor of 10. I hope you realize that having to use 10 times more blocks in 1 case compared to the other will result in some unwanted balance issues.

If you read the bug report about it you'll notice that I fully understand how percentages work. What you say is true but I don't really see what it had to do with my post.

I rarely look in the bugtracker.
Also, there isn't a difference.(technically)
let's say the ship in question has 10000 blocks, thus it's mass is 1000.
Now for an effect to work at 100% efficiency it requires 10% of the ship's mass.
1000*10%=100
thus the mass of the effect-system needs to be 100.
Now let's calculate with the block count:
Now for an effect to work at 100% efficiency it requires 10% of the ship's block count.
10000*10%=1000
thus the the effect-system needs to be 1000 blocks.
And since 1000 blocks have 100 mass the results are the same.

Unless the result of the equasion using mass should be a block count ofc.

 

[Lancake]

I rarely look in the bugtracker.
Also, there isn't a difference.(technically)
let's say the ship in question has 10000 blocks, thus it's mass is 1000.
Now for an effect to work at 100% efficiency it requires 10% of the ship's mass.
1000*10%=100
thus the mass of the effect-system needs to be 100.
Now let's calculate with the block count:
Now for an effect to work at 100% efficiency it requires 10% of the ship's block count.
10000*10%=1000
thus the the effect-system needs to be 1000 blocks.
And since 1000 blocks have 100 mass the results are the same.

Unless the result of the equasion using mass should be a block count ofc.

I forgot I didn't mention the bug report number, my bad: http://bugs.star-made.org/issues/1053

"Also, there isn't a difference." There is one as you have just proven.

Now for an effect to work at 100% efficiency it requires 10% Blocks of the ship's mass.
1000*10%=100
thus the mass of the effect-system needs to be 10.


Now let's calculate with the block count:
Now for an effect to work at 100% efficiency it requires 10% Blocks of the ship's block count.
10000*10%=1000
thus the the effect-system needs to be 1000 blocks.
And since 1000 blocks have 100 mass the results are the same.

It's either % Blocks of something, or % mass of something. you can't use one for the first formula and the second for another.

 

[Megacrafter127]

I forgot I didn't mention the bug report number, my bad: http://bugs.star-made.org/issues/1053

"Also, there isn't a difference." There is one as you have just proven.

Now for an effect to work at 100% efficiency it requires 10% Blocks of the ship's mass.
1000*10%=100
thus the mass of the effect-system needs to be 10.


Now let's calculate with the block count:
Now for an effect to work at 100% efficiency it requires 10% Blocks of the ship's block count.
10000*10%=1000
thus the the effect-system needs to be 1000 blocks.
And since 1000 blocks have 100 mass the results are the same.

It's either % Blocks of something, or % mass of something. you can't use one for the first formula and the second for another.

Can you reference me where you draw the "Blocks" you inserted in my statement from?

 

[SilentRider_14]

This is a silly argument caused by word problems and the fact that people are not using units of measure properly

Parenthesis added for proper reading emphasis:
"% bonus is based on the (system/ship) mass size ratio"

As written by Schema:
"ratio = effectBlocks / (mass * 10)"

this formula is simultaneously accurate for both mass and block count because currently each 10 blocks equals 1 mass allowing us to interpret figures all either being converted to mass or all to blocks

ratio =((effect_ block*(1 mass/10 block))/ ship_mass
= (effect_mass/10) / ship_mass = (effect/10)/ship = effect/(10*ship)


ratio =effect_ block/(ship_mass* (10 block/ 1 mass))
= effect_block/(10*ship_block) =effect/(10*ship) = effect/(10*ship)


removing the 10 completely would makes us off by a factor of 10
using the 10 on the wrong side made us off by a factor of 100

edit: cause emphasis

 

[Lancake]

This is a silly argument caused by word problems and the fact that people are not using units of measure properly

Parenthesis added for proper reading emphasis:
% bonus is based on the (system/ship) mass size ratio

As written by Schema ratio = effectBlocks / (mass * 10)

this formula is simultaneously accurate for both mass and block count because currently each 10 blocks equals 1 mass allowing us to interpret figures all either being converted to mass or all to blocks

ratio =((effect_ block*(1 mass/10 block))/ ship_mass


ratio =effect_ block/(ship_mass* (10 block/ 1 mass))


removing the 10 completely would makes us off by a factor of 10
using the 10 on the wrong side made us off by a factor of 100

Thank you for saying it's a silly argument, I wouldn't have stopped about it if you didn't mention it ^^

Back on topic now. As I also mentioned in that bug report's final note, the formula he uses now is still not correct according to the config explanation which is the only explanation people like you, me and any other player can use to make calculations from.
The fix he has made is still of with a factor of 10 what it should be according to the config, reason why I was confused about it.

Another reason why this appeared to be a faulty formula is the large number of effect blocks you need to have at least 1 effect at max %.

Small ships would need 1/10 of their blocks as system blocks to have a 100% overdrive as an example.
For bigger sized ships it's worse since they also need to meet the power requirement. a 4 000 000 block ship would need 400 000 overdrive blocks to get max %, 400 000 on its own is a huge number even for a big ship.
That amount of blocks would also use 40 000 000 power / second to keep it running and I doubt a ship that size can actually run it without removing most shields, weapons and hull.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

All effects got "nerfed". There was a bug where you needed 10 times less effect blocks to get the same % which was a giant buff for any ship out there. The fix for this bug isn't correct so now it is the other way around. Now you need 10 times more blocks than you should need for the same % which is compared to the pre bug fix a factor of 100 which it got nerfed with.

EDIT: I'm not sure now atm...The config says the fix is wrong but the graph made by calbiri, assuming it uses % of ship blocks (and not mass) shows the fix is correct.

I've tried to get word from @Calbiri if the intention is %blocks or %mass. %blocks makes the system nearly useless in my opinion but %mass may still be a little too strong. I might be happy with half of what the current numbers currently are but I would much prefer a more in depth system I need to write up.

 

[Lancake]

I've tried to get word from @Calbiri if the intention is %blocks or %mass. %blocks makes the system nearly useless in my opinion but %mass may still be a little too strong. I might be happy with half of what the current numbers currently are but I would much prefer a more in depth system I need to write up.

He could fine tune it by tweaking the power use of each block ,depending on your mass.

Example: a 10 mass ship would need 100 power for each effect block (depends on the type of effect too), a 1000 mass ship would need 200 power for each used effect block. That could balance it out for a few effects.

 

[jath]

The thing about balance, it's already balanced. If you can have it, so can I. It doesn't need "balancing"[DOUBLEPOST=1413842787,1413842687][/DOUBLEPOST]"NERF DRONES!, They are too powerful and the US military kills people with them!"

Build your own drones dude!

 

[Lecic]

The thing about balance, it's already balanced. If you can have it, so can I. It doesn't need "balancing"[DOUBLEPOST=1413842787,1413842687][/DOUBLEPOST]"NERF DRONES!, They are too powerful and the US military kills people with them!"

Build your own drones dude!

In that case, let's have rapid cannons do 800,000 damage per shot with a single pair of rapid cannons. I mean, anyone can have it, so it's not overpowered, right?

 

[NeonSturm]

The thing about balance, it's already balanced. If you can have it, so can I. It doesn't need "balancing"[DOUBLEPOST=1413842787,1413842687][/DOUBLEPOST]"NERF DRONES!, They are too powerful and the US military kills people with them!"

Build your own drones dude!

Build your own anti-(police/FBI)-investigation-(personal-harassment) or cloaking device also :p
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I think we should talk about either "System Mass" / "Ship Mass" OR "System Blocks" / "Ship Blocks".
Everything mixed just confuses peoples and (more importantly ) just adds a lot of clutter to this thread.
___

We have 10 effects.

If every effect has to be 10% of ship mass for full efficiency you can't build a ship with 2 effects maxed out and also have weapons in a ship with docks and some interior - this creates another reason to build doom-cubes :p
But that's stuff for another thread.