Biological components please!

[MacThule]

Looking at a suggestion thread about regenerative hull blocks made me think about how nice it would be to have regenerating organic tissues...

And bone for armor/bulkheads (slow regeneration; armor between hull & standard)...

And chitin armor (V. Slow regen; armor between standard & advanced)...

And internal organs for generating power & thrust & improving ship wide regen (at the cost of power); maybe digestive system for power from fuel (which would offset the regeneration even more since it would burn crazy fuel)... Maybe they could be lithovores so we wouldn't even need new fuel blocks...

And maybe a nice bio-weapon or two but also allow compatibility with standard weapons & systems to allow for borg-ing...

Maybe make the engineering even more complex than what we already do for synthetic ships to further offset any possible advantages...

Why?
1. Because it would be cool.
2. It would bring in a wide array of new play dynamics.
3. It would vastly expand the stylistic & RP potentials.
4. Why make "space whales" when you can make a system for players to build their own super awesome space whales?!?
5. I want Zerg, damnit!! And so do other people... Probably ;-)

Seriously - I typically avoid suggesting or supporting anything that calls for new blocks, and this kind of expansion would have to go pretty far down on the development list (like post-alpha, likely), but it would bring value to the game.

 

[Sachys]

I've been doing some biomech stuff recently actually. If yer brain is so inclined, you can do an okay job with whats to hand - so I do think it would be an interesting addition - even if it only ends up being a mod some crafty bugger comes up with (not me).

 

[Lecic]

Looking at a suggestion thread about regenerative hull blocks made me think about how nice it would be to have regenerating organic tissues...

And bone for armor/bulkheads (slow regeneration; armor between hull & standard)...

And chitin armor (V. Slow regen; armor between standard & advanced)...

What upsides and downsides would regenerating hull have to shields and regular armor?

And internal organs for generating power & thrust & improving ship wide regen (at the cost of power); maybe digestive system for power from fuel (which would offset the regeneration even more since it would burn crazy fuel)... Maybe they could be lithovores so we wouldn't even need new fuel blocks...

I don't really see a need for this. I would like a fuel power system, but as a replacement for docked reactors. I don't think it should be biomechanical. If you want to RP your ship like that, go ahead.

And maybe a nice bio-weapon or two but also allow compatibility with standard weapons & systems to allow for borg-ing...

What would bioweapons even be or do? Combos? The important thing to remember with new weapons and systems is to ask "what do they add?" rather than "how cool would this be?".

 

[hinkhenk]

I only support this due to my favourite series ever, being Lexx

 

[MacThule]

What upsides and downsides would regenerating hull have to shields and regular armor?

I don't really see a need for this. I would like a fuel power system, but as a replacement for docked reactors. I don't think it should be biomechanical. If you want to RP your ship like that, go ahead.

What would bioweapons even be or do? Combos? The important thing to remember with new weapons and systems is to ask "what do they add?" rather than "how cool would this be?".

I completely get where you're coming from, but I'm not thinking about something that needs to happen soon, this is more of a long-term thing. Do you really foresee SM never expanding the scope of its shipbuilding potentials? Just eternally the same basic systems we currently have? They're great and massively adaptive, but I think that to be successful over long periods of time, games need to grow and expand. That's a pretty standard and successful game model, and it just feel like this would be a really great way to expand the game. Particularly with people wanting space wales / space fauna anyway. It seems like a better approach than creating a new system of mono-cellular fauna sprites or whatever - bring in space fauna as part of rolling out a new block set at some point in the future.

People could just RP that their armor is Dark Grey... but now we've got a Dark Grey when we already had black, white and grey. It wasn't needed... it's just cool, and that's a legitimate factor to consider. Expanding style is something that keeps blood flowing into the game, and new blocks allow for more decoration. And I don't feel like this should be the primary or main purpose for a fuel dynamic, only one more reason why a fuel dynamic could bring additional love to Starmade.

One weapon system we are missing that would be great (and something that I've tried to force with chains of small docked entities with no real success) is a melee weapon system like tentacles. As far as specific pros/cons for regenerative ship components, I think that this is something that could be brainstormed into a reasonable level of balance with existing systems.

My motivation is less about anything Starmade is lacking, and more about something that would facilitate a greater variety of play-styles. Biological 'ships' might not have the same extreme armor as advanced armor that can just tank right into an enemy's face, but would be durable for hit and run style fighting. Encountering unusual deep-space organisms that may be neutral or hostile adds depth and immersion.

 

[DrTarDIS]

I only support this due to my favourite series ever, being Lexx

 

[Lecic]

I completely get where you're coming from, but I'm not thinking about something that needs to happen soon, this is more of a long-term thing. Do you really foresee SM never expanding the scope of its shipbuilding potentials? Just eternally the same basic systems we currently have? They're great and massively adaptive, but I think that to be successful over long periods of time, games need to grow and expand. That's a pretty standard and successful game model, and it just feel like this would be a really great way to expand the game. Particularly with people wanting space wales / space fauna anyway. It seems like a better approach than creating a new system of mono-cellular fauna sprites or whatever - bring in space fauna as part of rolling out a new block set at some point in the future.

People could just RP that their armor is Dark Grey... but now we've got a Dark Grey when we already had black, white and grey. It wasn't needed... it's just cool, and that's a legitimate factor to consider. Expanding style is something that keeps blood flowing into the game, and new blocks allow for more decoration. And I don't feel like this should be the primary or main purpose for a fuel dynamic, only one more reason why a fuel dynamic could bring additional love to Starmade.

One weapon system we are missing that would be great (and something that I've tried to force with chains of small docked entities with no real success) is a melee weapon system like tentacles. As far as specific pros/cons for regenerative ship components, I think that this is something that could be brainstormed into a reasonable level of balance with existing systems.

My motivation is less about anything Starmade is lacking, and more about something that would facilitate a greater variety of play-styles. Biological 'ships' might not have the same extreme armor as advanced armor that can just tank right into an enemy's face, but would be durable for hit and run style fighting. Encountering unusual deep-space organisms that may be neutral or hostile adds depth and immersion.

I'm a big fan of balance, and every time you add a new system, it gets harder to balance the rest of the game. This game is already a massive pain in the ass to balance.
What does a bio reactor add to the game that cannot be accomplished with a regular fuel reactor addition? They both consume fuel and produce power. Do the looks matter? Not really. Why should this be added when someone can just add custom aesthetics to a standard hypothetical fuel reactor? Colors are armor are different. They add aesthetic possibilities that the other armor colors did not. What does a new SYSTEM that works the same as another add?

A tentacle weapon would be cool, but what role does it really fill? We already have damage pulse.

I actually think regenerative armor would be a great addition.

Now, I want to focus specifically on this line.

I think that to be successful over long periods of time, games need to grow and expand. That's a pretty standard and successful game model, and it just feel like this would be a really great way to expand the game.

Expanding the game for the sake of expanding the game is how you ruin a good game. Constant, eternal content editions instead of growing on what you already have is the biggest mistake I see in indie games these days. You make your game great instead of a lot of mediocre content, and then, after your game is DONE, THEN, you look at what might be cool, and you add it. This is how Terraria succeeded. This is how FTL succeeded. You do not keep adding new things and spend 3 more years in development hell. You finish your game and release the cool but unnecessary stuff afterwards.

 

[Lukwan]

I only support this due to my favourite series ever, being Lexx

I can only assume that you haven't seen Farscape due to a brief coma or lost time.

The surest way to prevent regenerative armor from being Op is to make it suck. It would cool if the armour could seal up the hull even while the missing systems remain an empty cavity. This would have to be inherently weak armour that is expensive (shares resources with shields and armour).

 

[MacThule]

What does a bio reactor add to the game that cannot be accomplished with a regular fuel reactor addition? They both consume fuel and produce power.

You missed the part where the bio reactor was inherently tied into a system of self-regenerative armor & components. It's not an issue of two systems that do the same thing.

You finish your game and release the cool but unnecessary stuff afterwards.

Like I said in the OP - this is something that would fit in best post-alpha.

I don't think you disagree with this suggestion as much as you think you do; it's really not a call for a bunch of redundant decorative systems to be inserted into the alpha. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

 

[Lecic]

You missed the part where the bio reactor was inherently tied into a system of self-regenerative armor & components. It's not an issue of two systems that do the same thing.

Actually, you know, a bioreactor would be good as the system that powers regenerating armor.

 

[Cluwne]

Registered just to argue about organic ships. Perfect.

What upsides and downsides would regenerating hull have to shields and regular armor?

How about sealing the holes in the ship so the next shot won't blast it's systems? Thing is, comparing regular and organic ships is like comparing apples and oranges. You have to change the way you look at them.

• Regular ships have high durability, able to take a beating. But they need to visit a shipyard after that to repair the damage and restore the armor to remain at peak performance
• Bioships can take some punishment from time to time, regenerating damaged sections, but can operate indefinitely without repairs due to regeneration

Downsides? Gotta feed that bioship and that it doesn't mix well with shields.

Maybe they could be lithovores so we wouldn't even need new fuel blocks...

Sounds about right. There are always tons of leftover rocks from mining that aren't really used anywhere.
In a pinch, you could bite a chunk off the planet too, in case some overzealous miner or other hungry ship already swept through the asteroid belt.
Though ships should be able to retain some regeneration capabilities, as well as being able to power it's systems at something 25% through sheer power of cool... and photosynthesis. But mostly cool.

What would bioweapons even be or do? Combos? The important thing to remember with new weapons and systems is to ask "what do they add?" rather than "how cool would this be?".

Well, let's see:

• Acid spit: a weapon that has 0 shield and direct hull damage, but has a big splash radius. Affected blocks quickly corrode away and are eventually destroyed.
• Bioelectric disruptor: a kind of beam weapon that looks like lightning with nonexistent piercing hull damage that halts shield regen for a few seconds. Once the shields are down, it randomly disrupts additional system.
• Ion cloud: ion "flamethrower" that drains shields but deals no hull damage.
• Ballistic cannon: a cannon that fires organic bullets. Not much on it's own, it becomes devastating when with other weapons slaved to it.
• Toxin spit: this kills the crew. Not all of it, mind you, just those caught in it's splash radius, with same blocking mechanic we have for explosions now.

To top it off, all this can be combined, like cannon firing shells that explode into toxic gas or acid upon penetration.
God help you if you encounter Ion+Acid acid thrower while shields are down...
They add separate counters to excessive armor and shielding. Balancing could include making bioweapons incompatible with regular ships or require whole digestive system and whatnot to support them. Former seems more attractive and simple balance and development-wise.

The surest way to prevent regenerative armor from being Op is to make it suck.

The logic some people use, or lack thereof, never ceases to amaze me.
One of the ways to balance a thing is to change the way said thing works.
For example the bioships can't use shields. At all. Which means that frontal assault will always result in it having more holes than swiss cheese. Instead they rely on armor that easily blends with the environment on demand, thus helping them stay out harm's way for the most part, with minimal cost.

Finally, bioships could only require raw materials and rocks to essentially build themselves, not even needing a shipyard. Actually, raw materials could just accelerate the growth substantially, but the ship can grow without them, just very, very slow.
Instead of blueprints you'd have a "genetic template"-thing that you put in the organic core.
Regarding designing a bioship, in build mode you only designate where things should be instead of actually putting them down, with everything being saved into the genetic template in the biocore. With an added bonus that no matter what happens to the rest of the ship, as long as core exists, the ship will simply regrow.

And let's spice things up with altered mining - no more beams that gobble up asteroids. Instead you shoot a small "seed" that quickly grows into a polyp. This polyp spreads it's roots throughout the mined object, dissolving raw resources and storing them in bladders and tumors around the polyp. What's left in the end is small chunk of biomass that contains all the ores. Process is not very fast, but more effective, leading to more ores extracted.
Amusingly enough, this mining tool can be turned into a makeshift weapon, infecting the target and forcing the crew to locate and torch the polyp lest it devours the ship. Again, you will have to neutralize the shield first, but still!

Fun fact: while big bioships are still viable, small fighters would benefit greatly from being organic thanks to acid and cheap camouflage.

 

[hinkhenk]

I can only assume that you haven't seen Farscape due to a brief coma or lost time.

Oh no, Farscape comes in as a strong contender, and the only real reason for not surpassing Lexx, being the last aired episode.
But yes, Farscape and Lexx are two series everyone should watch.

On topic.
Perhaps this should be made as a mod rather than an acual part of the game, or another "mode" of the game perhaps.
I would love to see monsters in space, large as planets and more, dead and alive, kill em, and harvest their biological material to make new stuff
Now i need to make a ship that acts like a snake...

 

[Lukwan]

The logic some people use, or lack thereof, never ceases to amaze me.
One of the ways to balance a thing is to change the way said thing works.
For example the bioships can't use shields. At all. Which means that frontal assault will always result in it having more holes than swiss cheese. Instead they rely on armor that easily blends with the environment on demand, thus helping them stay out harm's way, for the most part, with minimal cost.

Finally, bioships could only require raw materials and rocks to essentially build themselves, not even needing a shipyard. Actually, raw materials accelerate the growth substantially, but the ship can grow without them, just very slowly.
Instead of blueprints you'd have a "genetic template"-thing that you put in the organic core.
Regarding designing a bioship, in build mode you only designate where things should be instead of actually putting them down, with everything being saved into the genetic template in the biocore. With an added bonus that no matter what happens to the rest of the ship, as long as core exists, the ship will simply regrow.

And let's spice things up with altered mining - no more beams that gobble up asteroids. Instead you shoot a small "seed" that quickly grows into a polyp. This polyp spreads it's roots throughout the mined object, dissolving raw resources and storing them in bladders and tumors around the polyp. What's left in the end is small chunk of biomass that contains all the ores. Process is not very fast, but more effective, leading to more ores extracted.
Amusingly enough, this mining tool can be turned into a makeshift weapon, infecting the target and forcing the crew to locate and torch the polyp lest it devours the ship. Again, you will have to neutralize the shield first, but still!

Fun fact: while big bioships are still viable, small fighters would benefit greatly from being organic thanks to acid and cheap camouflage.

1) Use second post ever to question other people's logic.

2) Proceed to make points that agree with other people's questionable logic (Bio-ships can't use shields = sucks :p)

3) Support popular & tricky new idea with a handful of untested mechanics: Bio-ship class cores & abilities...genetic templates...unrelated polyp-mining...weaponized polyps.....acid?....camouflage?

 

[Cluwne]

Proceed to make points that agree with other people's questionable logic

I questioned the "better nerf it before it becomes OP"- logic.
I tried to supply a way to actually balance it so both kinds remain viable, as opposed to outright nerfing everything.

(Bio-ships can't use shields = sucks :p)

WRONG You don't need >9000M of shields if the enemy can't see the bloody ship. Apples and oranges, I keep tellin' ya...

camouflage

It's a glorified cloak, for god's sake...

a handful of untested mechanics

That make sense in context of organic ships.

Bio-ship class cores

Have a better way to help the game distinguish organic ship from inorganic/dead one? Mind sharing it with us?
Because different cores would allow different and separate ways to build ships and the way those ships are treated in the game.

genetic templates

Glorified blueprint/design that you put in the core instead of a shipyard.

polyp-mining...weaponized polyps

Thrown in for laughs. Though it presents a nice way of passive mining.
And regarding weaponization... it's an accidental fun byproduct of the way it works.

acid

Effective and unique weapon with it's own downsides. May not be easy to pull off but it's totally worth it, both development and combat-wise.

 

[Lecic]

How about sealing the holes in the ship so the next shot won't blast it's systems? Thing is, comparing regular and organic ships is like comparing apples and oranges. You have to change the way you look at them.

It is most certainly not "apples to oranges." They're both ships and they're going to be directly competing.

Downsides? Gotta feed that bioship and that it doesn't mix well with shields.

Feeding it I'm fine with, but not being able to mix with existing systems? No.

Acid spit: a weapon that has 0 shield and direct hull damage, but has a big splash radius. Affected blocks quickly corrode away and are eventually destroyed.

Ion cloud: ion "flamethrower" that drains shields but deals no hull damage.

Actually, I think it would make more sense to combine these two into a single weapon. They're basically the same weapon, just with ion effect on one and pierce on the other. A weapon that hits something and strips away the outer layer of hull would be cool.

Bioelectric disruptor: a kind of beam weapon that looks like lightning with nonexistent piercing hull damage that halts shield regen for a few seconds. Once the shields are down, it randomly disrupts additional system.

Damaging shield regen and giving ships system outages sounds both incredibly obnoxious and unbalanced.

Ballistic cannon: a cannon that fires organic bullets. Not much on it's own, it becomes devastating when with other weapons slaved to it.

Pointless. There is nothing it could do that combining the existing cannon system with bioweapons couldn't accomplish.

Toxin spit: this kills the crew. Not all of it, mind you, just those caught in it's splash radius, with same blocking mechanic we have for explosions now.

So, a missile.

 

[nightrune]

Let me just say, that I love the idea of a bio ship, and this is likely to be a explusion of just tons of ideas.

First no specific cores! There is plenty of awesome things you would want to do with both blocks. I think we could do a lot with just a few different blocks.

First off I don't think we need all new blocks for the biological components, but we should have some bio specific weapons.

How I think armor/chitin/tissue should work:

There are three block types, Tissue, Scales, and Chitin, (hull, standard, adv) all regenerate. Tissue faster then scales, then Chitin, but they are both slow compared to shipyards/astrotech/shields. Something like a chance to spawn a block every so often. These fill in the destroyed block first then start taking over free space next, but they require a storage like organ I'm gonna call a stomach. The stomach is basically storage and the controller is the mouth (Yes its silly but its also a sweet block to have in a ship). You must have a stomach on a ship to have organic components. It allows them to operate and regenerate. I wouldn't want to add much more complexity then that since it would start to limit designs. The other caveat is that shipyards don't regenerate or add bio components. I'm unsure how I would want it to happen though? I feel like it should be different area but that would suck for hybrid factions. I'd love to hear thoughts.

I like the idea of not feeding your ship, and taking systems damage as well.

Well there's a bunch of half baked ideas. I'll try to come back and see what else the threads come up with.

TLDR: Don't limit to specific cores, and don't blindly add the same blocks again with different skins. Every block should stand on its own, but still allow us to build tyranid/zerg/organic ship #10000000000 on planets, ships, stations!

 

[Darkkon]

If I may drop two cents into this conversation, I am personally a huge fan of bio-mechanical technology. Bioships, Bioweaponry, Bio-augmentation, all that stuff. So I am naturally a huge fan of this being added to the game. But I honestly see all you guys talking about absolutes. Perhaps instead of just having shields not work with regeneration or whatever, it loses efficiency to a certain degree. Maybe say 50%. And as far as weapons go, even if the system is the same functionally, there may be some aspects of these bio weapons that differ from normal weapons in SM. The acid spit for example is similar to a missile, however a missile doesn't corrode armor over a period of time. The organic ballistic cannon is very similar to the normal cannon, however it could create a "polyp" on impact or inject toxin a few blocks deep that spreads out if theres no blocks beyond the impact point.

My point is that shooting something down because it is similar to something else is not always a good way to promote creativity. Think about possibilities here.

 

[Lecic]

If I may drop two cents into this conversation, I am personally a huge fan of bio-mechanical technology. Bioships, Bioweaponry, Bio-augmentation, all that stuff. So I am naturally a huge fan of this being added to the game. But I honestly see all you guys talking about absolutes. Perhaps instead of just having shields not work with regeneration or whatever, it loses efficiency to a certain degree. Maybe say 50%. And as far as weapons go, even if the system is the same functionally, there may be some aspects of these bio weapons that differ from normal weapons in SM. The acid spit for example is similar to a missile, however a missile doesn't corrode armor over a period of time. The organic ballistic cannon is very similar to the normal cannon, however it could create a "polyp" on impact or inject toxin a few blocks deep that spreads out if theres no blocks beyond the impact point.

My point is that shooting something down because it is similar to something else is not always a good way to promote creativity. Think about possibilities here.

I don't see a reason, balancewise, to nerf shields on a ship with regenerating armor.

 

[Darkkon]

I don't see a reason, balancewise, to nerf shields on a ship with regenerating armor.

my example was if we choose to go that route. I honestly think that shields on a ship with regenerating armor should at least have its regen nerfed a bit since the hull is also regenerating. Capacity should stay the same though.

 

[Cluwne]

It is most certainly not "apples to oranges." They're both ships and they're going to be directly competing.

Oh, they're gonna compete alright. Just not in the same way.
One type is good at tanking damage while the other is good at evading it. You can't really compare that.

but not being able to mix with existing systems?

That's one way to balance it. As well as an incentive make it a full-fledged ship type and not just a simple boring and possibly OP mishmash of bio- and mechanical parts.

Actually, I think it would make more sense to combine these two into a single weapon.
A weapon that hits something and strips away the outer layer of hull would be cool.

And that is exactly the reason they have to be separated. This is too good, even with the short range of ion cloud.
Or, to put it differently, it allows both of them to not be nigh-useless as a result of a balancing attempt.

There is nothing it could do that combining the existing cannon system with bioweapons couldn't accomplish.

It may sound picky as hell, and probably is, but existing cannons are energy weapons. You can't really mix acid or toxins in the energy.
Literally grasping at straws here.
This and those cannons have and add a depth detonation-kind of effect, inflicting minimal damage on the outside, but utterly destroying the insides.

So, a missile.

Lol no, it only has the spread mechanic of explosions. It's like the acid spit - an "explosive" projectile, only splashing with toxins over much wider area, leaving the hull and shields untouched.
It has the potential to kill half of your crew if ship's interiors are not properly separated by bulkheads or anything that can prevent the toxin cloud from spreading. An anti-personnel weapon of sorts, if you will.
And if the shot lands, the shield won't protect your crew, or you, for that matter, should you leave the core. This is a result of the way shields currently function. Add depth detonation with ballistic cannon and you have a very nasty piece of armament.

Don't limit to specific cores

Problem is, different cores allow us to have separate distinct ways to build and distinguish different kinds of ships. With all the up- and downsides associated with them.

I don't think we need all new blocks for the biological components, but we should have some bio specific weapons.

Well, if you look at a ship without taking decorations into account, you will need only a handful of new blocks: few bioweapon+ganglion pairs, organic hull, organic standard and advanced armor, organic doors, biocore, organic manipulator¹, organic rails and docker, organic storage controller². Maybe add neurons instead of logic for bioships for the hell of it? Falls into "decorations" though, so obviously not a first priority.
I mean, it's not like you need tons of brand new blocks, especially since some systems, like factories, shipyards, cloak, jammers and whatnot, are redundant on bioships and exclusive to inorganic ships.

I would also like to point out that I did not mention organic stations. There is a reason behind it - they simply will not work.
Stations need shields. A lot of shields. Bioships rely on maneuverability and stealth, neither of those are the case for the stations.

¹ A glorified build block+computer combination that oversees the organic parts of a hybrid ship. It is by entering this block you are able to designate where to grow, and subsequently regenerate, organic blocks. And it is by connecting a storage to it you supply the resources and fuel-food needed to facilitate the (re)growth. Though it can regrow lost parts without resources, it will take much longer to do so. When all manipulators are destroyed, you lose the ability to grow and regenerate organic sections. Feel free to come up with a better name btw.
² You could use the already present storage space to designate the space for... um... storage. Might need new textures for the crates though.