Greifing or Legitimate Strategy?

[Zaphord]

Just curious as to what the community thinks on the subject of certain strategies, and what players consider greifing.

I've made a few suggestions in other threads, and supported other suggestions that made many players cry out "but that would lead to greifing!" Namely upping damage and blast radius of warheads and the use of jump inhibitors.

My question is this; is it the strategy itself that's considered greifing, or the reasons players use those strategies?

Take camping in fps games for example. Many players cry fowl whenever someone camps a chokepoint on a map, mainly because they get picked off by the sniper before they get a chance to take an objective. Most get so mad about being fragged a dozen times over that they forget rushing into the sniper's cross hairs is just giving him free kills. Is the camping sniper greifing, or just sticking with a strategy that people keep falling for?

I'd like to hear about other instances in Starmade, I'd list a few others, but my break is over and I gotta get back to work.

 

[Comr4de]

If people don't want to risk others blowing their stuff up at all they might as well play singleplayer imo

 

[FatCobra]

I don't see this as greifing. IMO greifing is would be doing something to a ship/structure that isn't yours when no one is there to defend it. Using a tactic that works is just that a tactic. I hit and run tactics and tag teaming are another one that people complain about. These tactics work not only in game but in real life because they are good strategies.

While I do have a problem with camping a newbie area camping an objective to prevent an opposing force from achievement is part of the game. If you keep running into them with out changing your own tactic then you probably should try something else especially in a sandbox game.

 

[Lecic]

Namely upping damage and blast radius of warheads

The issue with powerful warheads isn't so much that they're "griefer tools" but rather a tool someone could get with relative ease and put a nasty hole in someone's ship for very little work. This leads to the obvious question of "why would you ever fly a battleship when you can do the same damage with a warhead on a cloaker"?

 

[Winterhome]

If you don't want your shit destroyed, dock it to homebase or hide it.

If you're offline and they find an unaccompanied vessel of yours, then don't be surprised or scream "GRIEFING" when they blast through its doors with warheads (faster than torching - trust me on this) and take it off your hands.

My one worry is if a player is online, at a community hub or shop or something, and another player throws a handful of dumbfire warhead torpedoes at them for the sole intent of causing problems, because dumbfire torpedoes don't have AI modules or faction modules and therefore cannot cause a war declaration, making it an easy and low risk way to scratch someone's hull without getting blasted to pieces by turrets.

I think that making hulls easier to produce (advanced armor's mass is already more than enough of a drawback - we don't need excessive material costs multiplying that issue), and improving shipyard repair jobs would totally offset the issue though, since the damage that even an upgraded 1mil damage warhead (as opposed to vanilla config's 2000 damage) can put out is generally pretty minor.

 

[Edymnion]

It has more to do with intent than it does with the method, the method simply enables the intent.

Torches are useful tools when you just want to say sneak into a pirate base and cut out the faction block without hurting anything else so you can claim it. And it works well for it's intended purpose of ship boarding so that you can do a surgical strike against someone.

It becomes griefing when the tools are used to circumvent fair play.

Using a torch to cut your way into a ship and cut the pilot out of the core when you're at war/in combat? Thats fine, its a new dynamic to combat, I can go with that. Using the torch to cut your way into a faction locked ship or station just so you can take out the faction block and put your own in to steal it? I would call that griefing if its against an active player, but not if you were doing it against say a base that has lost it's faction immunity due to inactivity. I wouldn't call that griefing, I'd call that cleaning up.

It can be a fine line, but the most general rule of thumb I can come up with is "if you're doing something to another player that they don't approve of, its griefing". As in, if both players are cool having a war, then by all means, have a war. If one side is pushing a fight and the other just wants to be left alone, then its griefing. Do you have a rivalry where sneaking in and stealing their ship as a trophy is considered part of the fun? Then by all means, steal each other's ships back and forth, because you're both cool with it. If you're taking random people's stuff, thats griefing.

Basically, if the other guy goes "Stop, I don't want to do this", then you freaking stop doing it.

Kind of like this:

Just replace sex with PvP, and conscious with online, and its pretty much the same thing.

 

[jayman38]

There's nowhere to adequately hide in spawn space, so I would say that StarMade spawn sniping is griefing. I've seen that in a YouTube video before. (The poster was suitably vilified.) Similarly, I'd say that an experienced player with a massive superior ship attacking a player who they are pretty sure is new to the game or otherwise just starting out without a chance to get to a homebase counts as griefing. I just generally recommend handling new players with kid gloves until they get the hang of it. You'll generally know if they have the hang of it by being a long ways off from spawn. Spawn camping in StarMade will hurt new-player interest in StarMade.

 

[Zaphord]

The issue with powerful warheads isn't so much that they're "griefer tools" but rather a tool someone could get with relative ease and put a nasty hole in someone's ship for very little work. This leads to the obvious question of "why would you ever fly a battleship when you can do the same damage with a warhead on a cloaker"?

Well, I wouldn't use a warhead on a cloaker because it's a one shot deal, which would net me nothing but a trip to the undeathinator with fewer credits and faction points. Even if I jumped out of the core before impact, now I have a very angry player aiming his guns at me, so back to the undeathinator again. As to the damage dealt vs a battleship; sure a single warhead could do comparable damage, but it can't do it more than once.

Frankly, if someone on my server did this sort if thing for lulz they'd be blacklisted for it. There's nothing to gain from it and it pisses people off. It also ruins everything for people who put time, effort, and hard research into making viable torpedoes and bombers to use in legit combat.

If you don't want your shit destroyed, dock it to homebase or hide it.

If you're offline and they find an unaccompanied vessel of yours, then don't be surprised or scream "GRIEFING" when they blast through its doors with warheads (faster than torching - trust me on this) and take it off your hands.

My one worry is if a player is online, at a community hub or shop or something, and another player throws a handful of dumbfire warhead torpedoes at them for the sole intent of causing problems, because dumbfire torpedoes don't have AI modules or faction modules and therefore cannot cause a war declaration, making it an easy and low risk way to scratch someone's hull without getting blasted to pieces by turrets.

I think that making hulls easier to produce (advanced armor's mass is already more than enough of a drawback - we don't need excessive material costs multiplying that issue), and improving shipyard repair jobs would totally offset the issue though, since the damage that even an upgraded 1mil damage warhead (as opposed to vanilla config's 2000 damage) can put out is generally pretty minor.

All good points, but as for the dumbfire torpedoes I'm fairly sure if the player is in a faction, and launched the torps from a ship they would register as faction ships. I did notice the turrets on my ships have a green marker on them like faction my ship does, but unless the faction being attacked is set to hostile towards agressors I don't know if this would incur a counter attack from AI turrets. The biggest problem is if the player using this tactic is not part of a faction, so the torps would register as neutral.

Personally, I wouldn't use this on a public station, but it's a good opener to an attack on an enemy faction provided you follow through with the attack and not jump away like a coward.

In other news...

Let's say I decided to play as a pirate, so naturally I'd be attackin other players to steal their stuff. A jump inhibitor would be vital to this carrer path, but here comes the pacifist miner in an unarmed salvager who cries greifer because he can't leg it at the first sign of trouble.

To this miner, I have 3 things to say;

1. Your fault for going out unarmed. Even salvagers should be prepared to defend themselves in some capacity.
2. You left your base, you accept the risks of being out in open space.
3. STAND AND DELIVER! Or I'll take what I want by force.

 

[Lecic]

All good points, but as for the dumbfire torpedoes I'm fairly sure if the player is in a faction, and launched the torps from a ship they would register as faction ships. I did notice the turrets on my ships have a green marker on them like faction my ship does, but unless the faction being attacked is set to hostile towards agressors I don't know if this would incur a counter attack from AI turrets. The biggest problem is if the player using this tactic is not part of a faction, so the torps would register as neutral.

If the player is in a faction but the ship isn't faction tagged, the torps will loose their faction tag the moment they undock, making them untargetable unless you're hostile to neutral.

 

[shadowulf]

If the player is in a faction but the ship isn't faction tagged, the torps will loose their faction tag the moment they undock, making them untargetable unless you're hostile to neutral.

Yes, that is true. However, if you are being attacked you probably are firing back, and that's a hell-storm of danger, as if they have torpedoes they aren't shielded usually. Or if its a stealth launch you can maneuver pretty well out of the way. Same with a long-distance shot.

Anyway griefing to me is a state of mind. If you are killing people in game for lols you are going to be considered a griefer. However, a pirate player probably won't, though he'll have a lot of people gunning for him. Spawn camping is also a griefers tool, regardless of game. Strategy is sending waves of torpedoes at an enemy base to soften targets and then jump in a fleet, or a stealth launch to damage a turret. My thoughts on targeting neutrals aren't relevant here, but in battles, any non-ally should be a target. Strategy and griefing are seperated by only a thin hair.

 

[Comr4de]

It has more to do with intent than it does with the method, the method simply enables the intent.

Torches are useful tools when you just want to say sneak into a pirate base and cut out the faction block without hurting anything else so you can claim it. And it works well for it's intended purpose of ship boarding so that you can do a surgical strike against someone.

It becomes griefing when the tools are used to circumvent fair play.

Using a torch to cut your way into a ship and cut the pilot out of the core when you're at war/in combat? Thats fine, its a new dynamic to combat, I can go with that. Using the torch to cut your way into a faction locked ship or station just so you can take out the faction block and put your own in to steal it? I would call that griefing if its against an active player, but not if you were doing it against say a base that has lost it's faction immunity due to inactivity. I wouldn't call that griefing, I'd call that cleaning up.

It can be a fine line, but the most general rule of thumb I can come up with is "if you're doing something to another player that they don't approve of, its griefing". As in, if both players are cool having a war, then by all means, have a war. If one side is pushing a fight and the other just wants to be left alone, then its griefing. Do you have a rivalry where sneaking in and stealing their ship as a trophy is considered part of the fun? Then by all means, steal each other's ships back and forth, because you're both cool with it. If you're taking random people's stuff, thats griefing.

Basically, if the other guy goes "Stop, I don't want to do this", then you freaking stop doing it.

Kind of like this:

Just replace sex with PvP, and conscious with online, and its pretty much the same thing.

bahahaha is this real life? The torch was added specifically for boarding occupied player ships.

I can't really formulate another argument because I'm too busy laughing at the comparison of starmade to sex lmfao

edit: alright I'm done now. I believe the saying goes, "if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen". If you don't want people to attack you then just don't play online. Since combat is one of the primary interactions between players in this game there is literally zero reason for you to be online if you don't want to run the risk of your shit being blown up.

 

[Panpiper]

Since combat is one of the primary interactions between players in this game there is literally zero reason for you to be online if you don't want to run the risk of your shit being blown up.

So social interaction, helping and being helped by other people to prosper in the game, are not reasons to be online?

 

[EricBlank]

If server rules allow your behavior, I'd say it isn't going to be griefing. A server should have rules against camping the spawn sector, for instance. As long as a troublemaker is identifiable, and the server's community is reasonable about protecting themselves and one-another, I'd expect everyone to track them down and gank them.

Now, warheads are a fair weapon, even in surprise attacks against unsuspecting targets. A kill/structural damage with a warhead should probably at least indicate who was the last player to interact with that ship, admittedly, and spur AI turrets on the damaged ship to target them, with a report to the ship's owner via mail, maybe. Coercing the admins into playing detective for you is just no fun. And they don't like having to do it either.

I'm fine with a world that just aint fair. I feel it never really should be fair, nothing ever is. But there should always be ways to get vengeance, to find those who need their shit wrecked.

Now, who would appreciate a suggestion in game mechanics: Implement a server-configurable griefer bounty/justice system that tracks illegal activities automatically under certain conditions. How that would work, I dunno, but if troublemakers could be publicly identified at least that might help players and admins determine whose shit really needs to get wrecked tonight.

 

[sayerulz]

The thing with the super-warheads is that they can destroy hours of work with something that took seconds to build. That seems like griefing as I see it. In my opinion, if someone is having fun at the expense of others, then it's griefing.

 

[Edymnion]

So social interaction, helping and being helped by other people to prosper in the game, are not reasons to be online?

This.

I play online because I enjoy talking to other players, helping to teach them how to play, showing off what I build and seeing what they build.

To go back to the consent metaphor, its like saying "If you don't want to get raped, why did you leave the house?"

For one, it implies that single player offers 100% of everything online play does, which it doesn't. For another, it implies that you have a right to be an asshole to anyone and everyone around you, because they "agreed" to it simply by virtue of crossing your path, which you don't.

Sounds like a griefer defense to me.

 

[lilheartless]

bahahaha is this real life? The torch was added specifically for boarding occupied player ships.

I can't really formulate another argument because I'm too busy laughing at the comparison of starmade to sex lmfao

edit: alright I'm done now. I believe the saying goes, "if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen". If you don't want people to attack you then just don't play online. Since combat is one of the primary interactions between players in this game there is literally zero reason for you to be online if you don't want to run the risk of your shit being blown up.

Here's the thing we don't have adequate ways to deal with "griefer" behavior In real life if one of my neighbors was a total dick and liked to shoot up my house every couple of weeks while i wasn't home I could "program" my home defense system to blow his ass to hell without also making it shoot frank my other neighbor who invites me over for tea every sunday. Also because i have ways to know whats going on somewhere when i'm not there even if i didn't set my "home defense" system to kill my stupid neighbor the second he looked at my house I could see that it was he who did it and take my vengeance personally when i got home.

In a large faction sometimes its not always practical to have your personal 5 or 10 or more ships docked at the home base which means you need you own station planet etc this is doubly true if you want to set up say a trade station or something like that with a shop. Obviously if you are trying to set up a shop you can't leave you station on attack neutrals because it would kill all of your customers not just that one asshat that decided to spam warheads at you with no way for you to fire back or tell who it was later.

As soon as ALL entities get an ownership flag (aka if a neutral ship is launched from a faction or neutral ship piloted by XXX_420noscopeasshatyoloswag420_XXX then said torpedo is owned by him and if said torpedo damages my station ship etc I can declare war on him and his faction at the same time then real griefing will no longer be a thing he could maybe get 1 torpedo off and then all of his other torpedoes would get shot down as well as him, As it stands we have no real defense against neutrals you either set them as hostile and ur an asshole picking on underdeveloped people in the name of self defense, or you leave them as non hostile and set yourself up to be taken advantage of.

In a sum zero scenario you are either an abuser or a victim and neither are good options.

yes torpedoes are for the most part ok when used in warfare or against other players that are around but unlike in real life we are not in this game 24/7 and shouldn't have to be to enjoy it / protect ourselves right now we can't.

Until tools are implemented to allow us to protect ourselves against specific players as well as know what happened while we were gone of course these "weapons" are going to be considered griefing.

 

[Comr4de]

That's a valid point. There really isn't any way to prevent that sort of behavior without going all in or not. We already have the personal enemy system, I don't see how hard it would be to tie someone to a warhead.

I'm assuming you're using the "declare war on hostile action" function but the warheads bypass that anyways.

 

[GRHayes]

The issue with powerful warheads isn't so much that they're "griefer tools" but rather a tool someone could get with relative ease and put a nasty hole in someone's ship for very little work. This leads to the obvious question of "why would you ever fly a battleship when you can do the same damage with a warhead on a cloaker"?

Interesting question. But lets look at real life a second. An aircraft carrier can't do much damage by itself. Most of its fire power really comes from its control of air space and the air craft it has on board.

However we could look at a modern day missile cruiser or submarine which are significantly smaller than an modern aircraft carrier and can deal incredible damage. In the case of the submarine its potential far out ways the carriers. Granted not all submarines are ballistic missile submarines. We also have air craft that can deliver nuclear payloads.

The big issues is can the air craft get close enough to launch and target a Carrier or ship of that size or will the defense systems kick in and take out the threat or missile.

So what makes the difference why not use all jet fighters and no air craft carriers or any other vessel for that matter. Well aircraft are light weight light on fuel and can't stay in sustained combat zones for any length of time. They need the support.

Lets assume for a minute they made the power systems and shield a relatively flat based model with no nerfing or allowed docked modules to operate fully without the nerf. Then raise shielding to an equal level as power in production. Give weapons a 1 to 1 DPS damage rate against shields 30% against hardened armor 60% against standard and 90% against hull and 100% against everything else.

What would happen is the extra damage a fighter can do people would make up for in shields and re-balancing their vessels. If they don't they are morons. Just like you have two choices on how to build your ship now you can build it for aesthetics or you can build it for performance. If you build your ship for appearance you don't expect the same performance out of it unless you are mad. It would be nice if the game allowed that but when you have things like shield gen only giving you 5.5 per block it just doesn't happen especially when it is nerfed in combat to 1/10 the rate. Which is the only real time you need shields is combat and it is that rate they chose to play with. So you need effectively 10 times the number of shield gen you thought to start with.

I wish people would stop bitching about game balance it is that issue that leads them to make choice like they have done.

I'd much rather have the game base more on reality in that respect because it is self balancing. The fact is there is always going to be someone more powerful.

 

[psteiner]

Greifing is easy to avoid.

Step 1: Acquire some resources to build a small fast ship with a decent jump drive.
Step 2:Travel to another galaxy, preferably 2 away to decrease probability of someone finding you
Step 3: Build up and prosper
Step 4: Set up faction jump gates to take you close-ish to spawn
Step 5: Good luck

 

[Zaphord]

Spawn camping is greifing no matter what game your playing, that we can all agree on. This will be rule #1 when I finally get Mostly Dark Universe to go public. As side from that, as admin, I'd have to look at greifing or legit tactic on a case by case manner.

So if I catch a player wrecking someone else's shit for no good reason other than for the lulz, first order of business is to turn on Godmode and wreck his shit. If it persists, he gets kicked with a 24 hour ban. Third time? Blacklisted.

Seems fair to me.