Game Balance approved suggestions for 18th Dec release

[Raging Capuchin]

Decouple armor color from resource cost

We've introduced 2 new crafting blocks: Standard hardener and Advanced hardener.

• Standard hardener requires 5 fertikeen capsules + 10 meshes
  Advanced hardener requires 4 fertikeen ingots + 20 meshes
  To make any standard armor, you require its basic hull block + 1 standard hardener
  To make any advanced armor, you require standard armor + 1 advanced hardener

This was a much needed change, I am glad player feedback was followed on this important bit.

 

[Master_Artificer]

This was a much needed change, I am glad player feedback was followed on this important bit.

OH how did I overlook that!

Lets see, Lukrah asteroids:
https://starmadepedia.net/wiki/Asteroid
Found in abundance in both inner, middle, and outer belts.
A tad flatter and smaller than normal asteroids, but don't really contain garbage blocks like the other asteroids do, so possibly a higher density of materials. But found everywhere, I like it.

https://starmadepedia.net/wiki/Fertikeen_Capsule
Used for the pulses, and emp, but both of those are hardly in high demand. Build blocks too, pfft.
Yeah, previously a useless resource because of how common it was and low demand it was needed, this was a good candidate to be chosen for this role. I like it!

Now, what about its crystal counterpart:
https://starmadepedia.net/wiki/Bastyn_Capsule
Well, we will be getting a lot of these now... perhaps use them to make the advanced glass versions of the armors? Crystal Hardeners that take the crystal blocks? Because right now, we might as well chuck them in the factory for additional crystal composite. Quite useless currently.

 

[Lancake]

OH how did I overlook that!

Lets see, Lukrah asteroids:
https://starmadepedia.net/wiki/Asteroid
Found in abundance in both inner, middle, and outer belts.
A tad flatter and smaller than normal asteroids, but don't really contain garbage blocks like the other asteroids do, so possibly a higher density of materials. But found everywhere, I like it.

https://starmadepedia.net/wiki/Fertikeen_Capsule
Used for the pulses, and emp, but both of those are hardly in high demand. Build blocks too, pfft.
Yeah, previously a useless resource because of how common it was and low demand it was needed, this was a good candidate to be chosen for this role. I like it!

Now, what about its crystal counterpart:
https://starmadepedia.net/wiki/Bastyn_Capsule
Well, we will be getting a lot of these now... perhaps use them to make the advanced glass versions of the armors? Crystal Hardeners that take the crystal blocks? Because right now, we might as well chuck them in the factory for additional crystal composite. Quite useless currently.

Took me a while to gather enough data of many ship sizes and types but I have a nice list of what ore and shard is not used a lot. I also need to check stations to be sure since they contain blocks others don't.

Now that asteroid spawning is more or less equal for every asteroid out there, it should be just a matter of time (and patience) to adjust all crafting recipes accordingly.

 

[Valck]

Now that asteroid spawning is more or less equal for every asteroid out there

How do I phrase this without coming across as the naysayer again...
I hope that doesn't mean what it sounds like. Wouldn't it be more interesting to have resources distributed unevenly?

 

[Exozen]

Yes! Increase the rail mass enhanced per block to from 5 to 10! Doubling it is a great start, everything else is good.

 

[Lancake]

How do I phrase this without coming across as the naysayer again...
I hope that doesn't mean what it sounds like. Wouldn't it be more interesting to have resources distributed unevenly?

A specific asteroid type has the best chance of spawning in its own orbital ring. For example, lava like asteroids only spawn near a star since it's hot there.
It's still distributed unevenly. You're not going to find rammet & sertise near a star, and you're not going to find mattise & jisper near system edges, at least not in larger amounts than 1 or 2 asteroids for every 50-100 you find.

It's the exact same system we've been using right now, only corrected to fix a mistake. The blue larimar asteroids (rammet & sertise) spawned near very cold temperatures. But because temperature decreases in a spherical way and the systems we have are cubic. It means that the really cold places were the system corners. You could only find rammet & sertise in asteroid belts that went out of the system, were angled 45° degrees.

Ironically most ships require like 50% rammet & sertise to be constructed because of how the crafting recipes are set up. The other 50% consists of the 7 other asteroid types...

 

[Valck]

It's the exact same system we've been using right now, only corrected to fix a mistake.

And that 'mistake' was what made it varied and interesting - a rare resource that is in demand.

I don't agree with your assessment of how high the demand was, I've happily been building spaceships with the 'mistaken' resource distribution without problems. It isn't that hard to find once you found your first few, and yes, not every solar system has it. But then I don't build kilometre-long Titans.

If it is approximately evenly difficult for everyone to find, I don't see a problem; instead I see a starting point for alliances and wars - if the other resources were distributed in a similar way, so that not every solar system has every resource available, trade and piracy is bound to happen.

But you already know and considered all of that, and this isn't the thread to discuss it anyway.

 

[Lancake]

And that 'mistake' was what made it varied and interesting - a rare resource that is in demand.

I don't agree with your assessment of how high the demand was, I've happily been building spaceships with the 'mistaken' resource distribution without problems. It isn't that hard to find once you found your first few, and yes, not every solar system has it. But then I don't build kilometre-long Titans.

If it is approximately evenly difficult for everyone to find, I don't see a problem; instead I see a starting point for alliances and wars - if the other resources were distributed in a similar way, so that not every solar system has every resource available, trade and piracy is bound to happen.

But you already know and considered all of that, and this isn't the thread to discuss it anyway.

Finding the asteroids is way easier now. But there's still a giant gap between the resources you need to build ships...

The above is data I've gathered of 11 ships, big and small. On the left is the total blocks needed to craft those ships.
You can obviously see what ores and shards are used a lot in ships, and those that are not being used at all.

Rammet & Sertise was ridiculously hard to find, and you needed a TON of them to make your ships in the first place. You still need a lot of them to make your ship, but at least you can find them in larger amounts again.

 

[Valck]

Rammet & Sertise was ridiculously hard to find, and you needed a TON of them to make your ships in the first place. You still need a lot of them to make your ship, but at least you can find them in larger amounts again.

Both are almost exclusively used in shield systems, which are not essential to build ships. Yes, they are a strategic resource, but you don't need them... until your neighbour has them.

 

[Lancake]

Both are almost exclusively used in shield systems, which are not essential to build ships. Yes, they are a strategic resource, but you don't need them... until your neighbour has them.

If everyone uses them, the person not using them is at a disadvantage. Not essential till everyone around you starts using them and currently, they are still being used in large portions. They require a lot more resources per block too, even ships that are armor orientated require a large amount of rammet & sertise, but you have to admit that the data isn't lying... Plenty of ores and shards that are not even used at all

EDIT: Could say the same about weapons right? You don't need them to have a working ship ^^

 

[Ithirahad]

Both are almost exclusively used in shield systems, which are not essential to build ships. Yes, they are a strategic resource, but you don't need them... until your neighbour has them.

Let's face it, everyone shields their ships... Unless maybe you're on some weird RP server or something.

 

[Valck]

If everyone uses them, the person not using them is at a disadvantage. Not essential till everyone around you starts using them and currently, they are still being used in large portions. They require a lot more resources per block too, even ships that are armor orientated require a large amount of rammet & sertise, but you have to admit that the data isn't lying... Plenty of ores and shards that are not even used at all

I don't disagree with you on how uneven the resources are used. Maybe that should be the thing to look into... and maybe people should think about adding effect systems to their armour and weapons to counter shields, if they don't have them. I think those systems need to be scrutinized for balance again and again.

Also you quote existing ship populations - on fresh survival servers, where everyone has had the same (limited) access to Larimar asteroids from the start, without carry over from old universes, or blueprints imported from creative ones?

Let's face it, everyone shields their ships... Unless maybe you're on some weird RP server or something.

Call me weird if you must - but please give a weirdo a configurable way to influence how resources are distributed...

 

[komatodik]

Both are almost exclusively used in shield systems, which are not essential to build ships.

It isn't that hard to find once you found your first few, and yes, not every solar system has it. But then I don't build kilometre-long Titans.

now. sorry... WHAT?! talk for yourself please.
i DO build MORE than kmsized titans,and i do use a lots of shields. like 50% of ship bp is shields. only shield capacitors btw. and i m8 have problems with finding ores for 567k shield capacitors.

 

[Lancake]

I don't disagree with you on how uneven the resources are used. Maybe that should be the thing to look into... and maybe people should think about adding effect systems to their armour and weapons to counter shields, if they don't have them. I think those systems need to be scrutinized for balance again and again.

Also you quote existing ship populations - on fresh survival servers, where everyone has had the same (limited) access to Larimar asteroids from the start, without carry over from old universes, or blueprints imported from creative ones?



Call me weird if you must - but please give a weirdo a configurable way to influence how resources are distributed...

You don't disagree with how uneven the resources are used, and that's good since that is what we're using to create diversity in resources...Instead of making certain asteroids more rare and alternating all recipes of the 700-800 ish blocks we have right now.

Both ways would give the exact same result. And those effect systems were not scrutinized, I made sure to check creative mode ships, ships used on pvp servers and utility only ships.
Also, people in survival seem to use trading a lot more than mining to get those harder to get resources. And killing pirates + harvesting them.

And to that last sentence, there is a configurable way how resources are used. Use that and you can create more diversity if you so desire.

 

[Ithirahad]

Also you quote existing ship populations - on fresh survival servers, where everyone has had the same (limited) access to Larimar asteroids from the start, without carry over from old universes, or blueprints imported from creative ones?

Sounds to me like the StarMade equivalent of living under a rock... It's an entirely valid way to set up a server, sure. Definitely not how most people do things, though. Vanilla shouldn't be balanced around that. Furthermore, with shipyards there's basically "imported from creative" everywhere. (Except with more bugs.)

Call me weird if you must - but please give a weirdo a configurable way to influence how resources are distributed...

Something like that is probably planned, but being a feature it may take a while to get implemented.

 

[Valck]

You don't disagree with how uneven the resources are used, and that's good since that is what we're using to create diversity in resources...Instead of making certain asteroids more rare and alternating all recipes of the 700-800 ish blocks we have right now.

I agree with your analysis how resources are not consumed in even proportions. But what I see is a disproportionate amount of resources used for shield systems, which to me seems to indicate a balance issue, regardless of how rare the raw materials are or aren't.

Both ways would give the exact same result. And those effect systems were not scrutinized, I made sure to check creative mode ships, ships used on pvp servers and utility only ships.

But that's the point I'm talking about - if you don't have access to shield resources, maybe invest in armour hardeners so you don't require shields as much. And 'EMP' weapons to counter those that have shields. Both could be ways to encourage the use of other resources and pull them out of their obscurity.
Allow the choice (or fate) of your starting location influence what ships you build, instead of having all ships require shields to be competitive. Rock-Paper-Scissors...
I don't deny it is hard to balance, but if you want evolving gameplay, shouldn't there be shortcomings as well as overabundance? If everything is equally available everywhere, what is the defining difference to creative mode?

Also, people in survival seem to use trading a lot more than mining to get those harder to get resources. And killing pirates + harvesting them.

And where are those traded resources supposed to come from? Currently the Trading Guild spawns them in. I understand you don't want to go all EVE-hardcore-mode, but how can that fit in the larger picture of your plans for a demand driven economy?
Farming pirates is fine if they have to 'build' their ships too - or steal them of course - but somebody has to 'build' them in the first place.

And to that last sentence, there is a configurable way how resources are used. Use that and you can create more diversity if you so desire.

I know I can modify the recipes. I wasn't talking about how resources are consumed, but how they are spawned in. Asteroid distributions, mineral distributions on planets, that stuff.

talk for yourself please.
i DO build MORE than kmsized titans,and i do use a lots of shields. like 50% of ship bp is shields. only shield capacitors btw. and i m8 have problems with finding ores for 567k shield capacitors.

Which is why I am voicing my concerns, asking for options to configure a server to the visions of the people playing on it. Also purple sucks in my opinion, but hey, there are options if you want to write in purple, so why shouldn't you?

Sounds to me like the StarMade equivalent of living under a rock...

Absolutely, going to crawl back under my rock now and play some weird RP StarMade.

 

[Ithirahad]

I actually like the idea of the setup you're talking about, Valck. I just mean "weird" as in... well, that's not exactly how most servers have things set up, so vanilla shouldn't be balanced around it :\

We DO need some more ability to control resource distribution, though. I agree.

 

[UndeadPotato]

Also, people in survival seem to use trading a lot more than mining to get those harder to get resources. And killing pirates + harvesting them.

I only play on survival multiplayer, and make it my goal to build as much as I can with traded goods instead of harvested goods. I've been doing this for about a year now.

The first half of that had me trying to trade using credits, since they're a more versatile form of payment. Since I moved to trading rammet/sertise/shield caps instead of credits, suddenly people are more open to trade. A decent part of that was because of how scarce they were. Any deal where people were giving rare material was at least looking into.

I don't think this will hurt their value too badly, since there is still a large demand for these items. I do, however, hope that Schine has a plan for scarcer things to trade. Time vs cost is an important thing for determining worth, and scarce resources are an easy go-to for people who want to be merchants.

 

[Lukwan]

For now, cargo is just a system you'll get time to get used to. Cargo is important for future mechanics that will form the bigger picture.

One great feature of cargo is that it allows constraint to built into an automated factory. I use the cargo limit to prevent my factory from overproducing if I walk away and forget to shut it off. Sweet.

 

[Valck]

with shipyards there's basically "imported from creative" everywhere

Sorry to bring this up again... but this was nagging me.

While it is true that with shipyards you can now design as if in creative, you still need the resources to actually build the ships. And if some resource is hard to come by, it is so for everyone, and different from just importing a ship from creative. Which is why I think you can't just take some sample of ships from the community content section and use that for an analysis of resource utilization versus resource availability in survival.

Of course this is completely irrelevant to whichever direction Schine are taking the game - in the end it's their vision after all. I wouldn't waste hours playing this game if I wouldn't actually enjoy it ;)