Weapons 2.0 - Critiscism

[GnomeKing]

Firstly, Thank You Dev team for the update ... been so quiet I nearly missed it :O

I am testing it out - and these are preliminary comments to expand on;

The work done on time-spread/acid-damage models is important and needs real time testing in populated servers to judge effectiveness for calculation load spikes. Mitigating other types of calculations over time, or otherwise optimizing use of 'low load cycles', might be fundamental approaches ( and given limits of multi-threads in java ???)

Overall some very interesting, cool new features (bomb, and mines if they actually work) but sometimes at the expense of other existing dynamics. For example, latch-beams makes a cool new weapon...but get a little repetitive, and i miss the deep slices and gashes made by 1.0 beams. Where is a sci-fi battle without beam-lasers slicing huge cuts into doomed ships :/ ? - why not both?

...and What Is going on with ranges BTW ? :/

Loss of pulse reduces combos significantly - for example, the combined sniper-artillery cannon is far less dynamic and interesting than the variety offered with pules and beam as separate choices. Similarly missiles are now reduced in variability...this feels like simplification and dumbing-down

Pulse could easily be kept, even if only for use as a secondary combination for more variety - but its use as a Primary weapon could also be simple - why not simply use a missile explosion damage-model, with an exception for damage to self ?

Some info from the DEvs would be great, especially in regards of performance and game-design choices: for example, are latch beams easier to calculate and reduce load? Or, how much of this new work is directly relevant to eg AI and NPC issues?

Kudos to Schine (as always), but some more insight would be Really Great, as Weapons 2.0 is not (as it currently stands) a complete success

 

[dwwojcik]

Where is a sci-fi battle without beam-lasers slicing huge cuts into doomed ships :/ ? - why not both?

I believe beam+beam are intended to give what you want. I agree, if we didn't have those it would be a pretty glaring omission.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Firstly, Thank You Dev team for the update ... been so quiet I nearly missed it :O

I am testing it out - and these are preliminary comments to expand on;

The work done on time-spread/acid-damage models is important and needs real time testing in populated servers to judge effectiveness for calculation load spikes. Mitigating other types of calculations over time, or otherwise optimizing use of 'low load cycles', might be fundamental approaches ( and given limits of multi-threads in java ???)

Even in controlled tests, there is a lot more combat lag and lag crashing now, but it is difficult to empirically separate issues with integrity from issues with acid damage at this point in "real-world" tests. More work needs to happen on the engine before I'd call it ready to make those judgements.

Overall some very interesting, cool new features (bomb, and mines if they actually work) but sometimes at the expense of other existing dynamics. For example, latch-beams makes a cool new weapon...but get a little repetitive, and i miss the deep slices and gashes made by 1.0 beams. Where is a sci-fi battle without beam-lasers slicing huge cuts into doomed ships :/ ? - why not both?

...and What Is going on with ranges BTW ? :/

Loss of pulse reduces combos significantly - for example, the combined sniper-artillery cannon is far less dynamic and interesting than the variety offered with pules and beam as separate choices. Similarly missiles are now reduced in variability...this feels like simplification and dumbing-down

Pulse could easily be kept, even if only for use as a secondary combination for more variety - but its use as a Primary weapon could also be simple - why not simply use a missile explosion damage-model, with an exception for damage to self ?

I completely agree that pulse as a separate secondary was much better. The choice between the versatility of beam-beam and the raw power of beam-pulse for ion-lances for example was a good balancing factor and could drive entire military doctrines.

That said, they can not use the same model as missile explosions for pulse. Missiles only check the thing they hit to determine damage. This is presumably an optimization to prevents a lot of wasted, game breaking calculations in major battlefields which might have hundreds of missiles and hundreds of entities resulting in tens of thousands of hit checks per sim cycle. Since Pulse does not "hit" anything, it needs to calculate against everything which is less performant without some pretty fancy and well thought optimisations.

Some info from the DEvs would be great, especially in regards of performance and game-design choices: for example, are latch beams easier to calculate and reduce load? Or, how much of this new work is directly relevant to eg AI and NPC issues?

Kudos to Schine (as always), but some more insight would be Really Great, as Weapons 2.0 is not (as it currently stands) a complete success

Latch On beams give people better options for countering spaghetti and speed tanks. Before, a beam would only hit a fast strafing ship with the first tic, then the remaining 4 tics would fly off into space (bad for game balance). Also, there are things you can do defensively to latch on beams to retarget or otherwise spread out their damage so it only gashes your armor instead of digging down to your systems.

 

[MacThule]

Good critiques.
I like the main latch-on beam, but the 'looser' latch-on should just be no-latch, IMO. I'm guessing that they discovered some substantial optimization value in using latch-ons and eliminating free-sweeping beam damage.

The late option of shorter range, raw power offered by pulse feels like a phantom limb right now, and I had always held some hope that they would be able to optimize pulse primary into a functional weapon. It was inevitable that some things would be lost to design realism though. They have to pick their coding battles sensibly or lose the war for certain.

 

[petlahk]

If we move away from the pulse weapon as is for a moment. I wanna point out that retaining a fourth weapon and fourth secondary system that offers a different set of tactics might still be useful and interesting.

So, my question is, what could be changed with pulse to have it be an interesting fourth option and fourth set of secondaries? What potential weapons systems could replace it?

My random off the cuff idea is "close-range plasma flame-thrower". But, I don't think that actuall makes sense.

Also, shameless plug. (Though i'm plugging it just to give people an idea of what the weapons look like right now.):
[Dev Build] 0.201.004 - Weapons Update Current Early State and Discussion

 

[dwwojcik]

close-range plasma flame-thrower

Napalm in space?

 

[MacThule]

So, my question is, what could be changed with pulse to have it be an interesting fourth option and fourth set of secondaries? What potential weapons systems could replace it?

First - Personally I think I would like to see the current core weapons balanced out and the galaxy update rolled out before trying to add a 4th weapon system back in, but am very much in favor of additional weapon dynamics as a general item.

Second - plasma flamethrower sounds like waaay too much fun, and could totally make sense. I think it's credible that a ship with an unspecified, future-tech reactor might have a mechanism to vent insanely energetic plasma from its cooling system forward (or broadside) as an effective energy/heat weapon. The balance could be high energy cost, since it directly affects the reactor, as well as being locked into heat-base which can be countered using defensive chambers.

Third - I feel like pulse could have been very effectively re-worked into a "burst" or "cluster" effect. Primary burst could fire a spherical shotgun spread from the weapon. Secondaries would reflect very close real-world analogues: Missile-burst could result in a MIRV-like effect where the primary missile spherically bursts into multiple secondary vehicles on a timer (adjustable? hold-down-button-to-time-dynamically?) or on proximity to target, Cannon-burst could act like flak, also detonating at proximity to target (or on timer) and sending out a spherical scatter of shrapnel, Beam-burst could spherically "disco-ball" at a set range or at proximity to target (or on timer). Effects like these on real-world missiles and projectiles are used to saturate spaces behind obstructions and would be particularly nasty if well-timed to air burst just inside a hull breach as well as being useful for targeting support ships using heavy armor ships, stations or asteroids as mobile cover.

For now, pulse being out is fine by me - it was broken as primary and as a secondary was pretty much shorthand for adding more weapon components to get a higher output. It is definitely worth hoping though that eventually pulse or something similar makes a re-appearance once they've gotten the other 3 weapons on lock.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Some kind of wide area weapon is not a bad idea. I think getting rid of old "shotguns" and making pulse a short ranged wave weapon could be good (don't even need to change the name). Basically fire a disc that spreads out in a cone that causes damage to blocks based on how much its spread out. So, if an 8 million damage wave spreads out to a 200m diameter disc, every block it hits will take about 250 damage.

Overall Purpose of Pulse weapons would be to cause large areas of surface damage. It would not penetrate well, but it could be used to strip away surface armor, clear minefields, and kill various other tiny things like chaff, astronauts, and distractor drones.

Pulse-Cannon: Wave becomes more DPS (Basically a flame thrower).
Pulse-Missile: Wave expands faster for better area coverage.
Pulse-Beam: Wave expands slower for better at range.
Pulse-Pulse: Wave becomes more Alpha.

 

[petlahk]

Third - I feel like pulse could have been very effectively re-worked into a "burst" or "cluster" effect. Primary burst could fire a spherical shotgun spread from the weapon. Secondaries would reflect very close real-world analogues: Missile-burst could result in a MIRV-like effect where the primary missile spherically bursts into multiple secondary vehicles on a timer (adjustable? hold-down-button-to-time-dynamically?) or on proximity to target, Cannon-burst could act like flak, also detonating at proximity to target (or on timer) and sending out a spherical scatter of shrapnel, Beam-burst could spherically "disco-ball" at a set range or at proximity to target (or on timer). Effects like these on real-world missiles and projectiles are used to saturate spaces behind obstructions and would be particularly nasty if well-timed to air burst just inside a hull breach as well as being useful for targeting support ships using heavy armor ships, stations or asteroids as mobile cover.

For now, pulse being out is fine by me - it was broken as primary and as a secondary was pretty much shorthand for adding more weapon components to get a higher output. It is definitely worth hoping though that eventually pulse or something similar makes a re-appearance once they've gotten the other 3 weapons on lock.

That actually sounds amazing as well. Having a burst damage flak-like secondary. It could be tricky to use and design, but add an interesting layer to combat as well. Maybe instead of a timer, it could be a proximity to closest block type slider? Make it a bit easier to use. xD

And, yeah. I agree that these two concepts - if they are added - should be added after the universe update, or as a small little doodly one in spare time.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Frankly, I would prefer either of the above options to mines :D

 

[petlahk]

Frankly, I would prefer either of the above options to mines :D

xD

Edit: I like the mines!

 

[Nosajimiki]

Sorry, I meant to say mines with guns. I just feel like if it's shippy enough to shoot you, it should be an actual ship.

Explosive mines could be fun

 

[petlahk]

Sorry, I meant to say mines with guns. I just feel like if it's shippy enough to shoot you, it should be an actual ship.

Explosive mines could be fun

Okay, yeah. I agree with that. It is a bit uhhh... anime-ish?

 

[NaStral]

I forgot who mentioned this on the Discord, but being able to modify mining arrays into makeshift weapons would be cool. I’m kind of envisioning a relatively high dps but very short range weapon. It might be able to be accomplished with a reactor setting rather than a weapon system combo

 

[Crimson-Artist]

Napalm in space?

We DO NOT talk about Plasma Burst Generators!

 

[petlahk]

We DO NOT talk about Plasma Burst Generators!

Why not? Is there a secret society that builds plasma burst generators? Is this secret society secretly a comment on society?

 

[Crimson-Artist]

Why not? Is there a secret society that builds plasma burst generators? Is this secret society secretly a comment on society?

I've said too much... I'm sure they're coming for me now!

 

[arkahys]

I've said too much... I'm sure they're coming for me now!

You talk about that on internet and on what they promote to mix up facts on unreal subject to discredit people who talk, become ridiculous by them who laught to forget that they feel ridiculous by people who laught to ignore (and forget) and follow them to looks like(and grants) this apparent untouchable people.
You turn yourself in ridiculous, you are safe...

 

[Dire Venom]

Has anyone been able to actually get mines working yet:? You can hook them up to a couple of blocks, theres no word what to put in the cargo or how though.

 

[petlahk]

Has anyone been able to actually get mines working yet:? You can hook them up to a couple of blocks, theres no word what to put in the cargo or how though.

I think someone has, yeah. But that wasn't me.