Weapon Choice for Personal Fighter

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    Hey guys!

    Just wondering, for a larger fighter/ Eve-style "frigate", intended to be flow by the player, what weapon system do you think would be most effective against other fighters?

    I'm leaning more towards missile/beam for their accuracy. What do you guys think?
     
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    If it is a dogfight, missile beam is too slow at lock on.

    In a 1v1 situation, I would go for missile missile with low missile support so the individual missile remains powerful. Then use AMC or Beam for supplementary weapon.
     
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    I would likely use something like I have on my drones. Beam + Beam + Explosive, or Beam + Cannon + Explosive.
     
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    I would likely use something like I have on my drones. Beam + Beam + Explosive, or Beam + Cannon + Explosive.
    For beam, use piercing. Explosive deals extremely low damage for a fighter's weapon. Piercing carries the damage to the blocks behind the enemy vessel and essentially doubles the damage once enemy shields are down (I think).
     
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    The reason I use explosive, is after you get past the armor, you really start chewing up systems. AND Explosive doesn't reduce damage vs shields. Also, when talking about my drones they are only around 115 mass is this larger or smaller then what the question entails?
     
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    M-M is great....so long as you've got no friendlies. Otherwise, you start killing friendlies. That's bad. Usually. Unless your friend is someone annoying.

    If M-M won't work, well, cannons are always a good fallback.
     

    DrTarDIS

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    beam 4 : cannon 3 : stop2.
    Missile 5 : Pulse 1 : Overdrive 2
     
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    Do you think overdrive cannons would be effective? I'm just afraid I won't be able to aim effectively, and get chewed up because I can't maximize my shots' effectiveness to do the greatest HP damage and overheat the core in a timely fashion.

    That's something I noticed when experimenting with turrets, anyway. The AI could much more quickly and effectively disable an enemy ship with a turret than I could. Maybe I just suck, haha.
     

    Olxinos

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    Cannon/cannon/overdrive is one of the best weapon combinations of the game imho (some people argue that the loss of damage per energy is too detrimental though), however you should probably refrain from using overdrive on anything with high reload times as the number of required capacitors will quickly go through the roof which defeats the point of using overdrive to reduce your weapon's systems mass (punch-through usually being the "standard" tertiary on cannons instead). I'd also advise against overdrive if you don't have reasonably efficient energy systems (say, less than 350 energy per reactor block) and you really care about your damage output, in which case punch-through is usually better (especially on fighters which sometimes have a reinforced front and not that much shield capacity, hence minimizing overdrive's advantage of having usually stronger shield damage than punch-through for similar sized systems).

    However, it's indeed hard to hit really small targets with manually fired cannons (the AI shoot way more accurately than players in most servers) so if you want a manually aimed weapon, I'd got for beams (as they don't require to lead the shots), lock-on/heatseeker missiles (typically missile/beam or missile/missile, missile/pulse is usable but be aware of its low speed! remember you can make compromises with a less than 1:1 master:slave ratio), or an accurate stop weapon to prevent your opponent from dodging your shots (never actually tested that but I guess it should work).

    A few more comments on weapon systems:
    Great alpha damage, great accuracy (lock-on missiles), AoE and great range (from 1.6x to 4.8x sector size for missile/beams) are their main selling points making them one of the most popular weapons.
    They're however slow (except for missile/cannon and missile/beam to a lesser extent), can be shot down by small cannon turrets, can't lock on a jammed target (plus, the lock-on isn't instantaneous... except when fired by AIs, even with low accuracy settings), may require a lot of energy capacity (hence lots of additional capacitors) and usually have high reload times.
    They also have some issues piercing thick layers of armor and their damage is a bit weird sometimes but it's still a very solid weapon if you don't mind about the high reload times and the threat of anti-missile systems.

    Cannon/cannon is a very popular combination (tied with missiles, if not even more). Its low reload time reduces the need for capacitors and makes it able to take down more blocks per second than most weapons.
    Big enough cannons can tear through your opponent's armor then pierce through their systems (efficient cannons are often designed to destroy at least one block of armor per hit, for instance advanced armor with 25% defensive piercing effect). Honestly, the AoE of missiles might be more impressive, but I think fast-firing cannons are actually able to destroy more blocks per second, besides they're far better at piercing armor than missiles (cannons really are the best anti-armor weapon).
    However, cannons are hard to shoot manually (at least on small targets), and have average range only (1x sector size). I've often preferred them on turrets for that reason (or against big enough targets so that aiming isn't really a problem anymore).
    Cannon/beam alleviates the range issue at the cost of reload time (3x sector size, making it the second longest range weapon, behind missile/beams) but at this distance it's downright impossible to manually hit anything anyway.

    Beams instantly hit, hence they're far easier to fire manually than cannons and slightly more reliable than missiles (which are quite slow and can be shot down). Unfortunately, they have bad range (0.5x sector size) and most of all, their damage to armored blocks currently doesn't scale well (I think it isn't intended, but I'm not sure; I really hope it isn't at least).
    That's a shame because that inability to reliably destroy armored blocks kinda kills them as a main weapon past a certain damage output (they're however really interesting as a ion, EMP, or momentum effect weapon).
    Note that beam/beam somewhat the range issue (1.5x sector size) at the cost of higher reload times.

    Pulses are downright useless except for esthetics purposes or really gimmicky/special builds, their very short range is too detrimental, I strongly advise against them.

    All in all, there are several usable combinations (some being slightly more effective than others, I guess, but I think the best combination may vary depending on the situation).[/Spoiler]
     
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    I use beam+cannon+piercing anytime I plan on manually operating the weapon. I didn't even think explosive was an option with beams. Anyway, my main consideration is that I can't hit anything at longer ranges than what beam+cannon offers, and beam removes the need to lead the target.
     

    Master_Artificer

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    Might as well explain myself, in a fight both players tend to hold 'W' and face each other (for the typical of fights) resulting in rapid decrease in range. You probably have time to get one or two lock on missiles off due to the long reload, so might as well have that as a secondary weapon, go smaller to not drain all your capacity, and go ion (because they will have shields at the beginning, double damage is nice). If you want a more multi purpose missile, pierce. You will only be able to use them when closing or when disengaging.

    The cannon-cannon-punch setup is just in general a rock solid build. Might even be a bit unbalanced, still needs testing.
    Basically you can do more damaged with a lesser block count than your opponents.

    Let me explain

    Cannon Cannons have constant damage output and suck down a constant amount of energy. To make your gun go pew pew, just hook up a bit of juice and your good to go.
    Now, with alpha and derp weapons, you need both power regen and a set amount of power capacity to make your guns go pew.

    Power regen is easy, make a couple L's, T's, X's, and even just straight lines and you are good. Its based on maximum lenght/width/height, and not really on block count.
    Power capacity, however, is based on block count. And it takes a lot of blocks to get a large amount of capacity, and this issue only increases as you scale upwards/have more than one output.

    So a ship made for DPS damage has a strong power regen, minimal ship mass invested on power capacity, with the eqivilant amount of mass dedicated to other things, like thrust or shields (or armor, pls don't nurf armor thx). Or interiors. Seriously guys, RP ships should always have DPS style weapons if you still want to remain competitive-ish. Replace your power capacity space with rooms and still have equivalent shielding and stuff.

    Alpha derp ships need to have a lot of mass invested in capacitors. Sure if you can keep your distance with missiles you will have the tactical advantage and the upper hand.
    HOWEVER, the battlefield is a complex and ever-changing place, you sometimes will and sometimes wont have the upper hand.
    With DPS armor tanks, you just point your ship at the enemy at hold down left mouse button once you get in range where you think you can hit. If everything is equal, you will have more systems like thrusters, and you will have a higher top speed.

    And derp cannons or alpha beams are useless at this scale too, you really need block removal so it is only missiles. I tested ships with cannon+beam+explosive (4 of them) each heavier than a equivalent cannon-cannon-pulse ship (3 of them).

    (it was a disaster, lost all 4 of the cannon beam explosive ships)
    (also I really like cannon beam explosive, you need like 600+600+80 for it to be worthwhile or something but it is a good weapon I thought. Maybe it is just meant for turrets on large ships? Ah well.
    )

    Anyways. In starmade you need block removal to win fights, not core drilling. (this is why you make a 'black box' and store all combat computers away in it away from your core so you don't lose them in a fight). Block removal means cannon cannon, or explosive weapons like missiles.

    Note, Logic missile cannon pierce is a superior weapon to cannon cannon, but requires skill to use, as I have learned. Sticking to cannon cannons :P

    Now, a well placed nuke can cripple a ship in one blow, but in 45 seconds that it takes to load the darn thing a buzzsaw cannon cannon punch build can chew you up twice over. And it is not hard for players to swat missile-pulse out of the sky when they have cannon cannon as their primary weapon, it we found it happened pretty consistently if the player knows if the ship they are fighting is equipped with nukes.

    Shields go down in the first minute to 30 seconds of the fight. Then it is a mission of who can peel back the armor of the other player faster and get to the juicy system bits. 5 layers of advanced in the front can make you impervious to the first few missile hits, as an example my 1.7k mass fighter has 15 layers and a 5 layer buffer zone/crumple zone of interior in the front to absorb the hits before the armor. I have room to do this because I don't need to have a huge battery of capacitors in my ship. Power lines and cannon barrels are the only things found snaking their way through the armored prow of the ship (the sides are practically made of foil paper though, gotta keep the front pointed at your enemy). Cannon cannon doesn't give 2 shits about armor, punch means you deal 1.5x block damage and NO downsides. (explosive lowers block damage by 5% every 10% of effect, peirce ignores most armor and goes straight to the block HP at the cost of all shield damage when using cannons.). Therefore punch is a straight-up default effect to choose from, while the others are side-grades.
    You need a few thousand blocks before explosive effect starts breaking standard armor in the blast radius (which is capped at 10% effect ratio if you didn't know, 11-100% is wasteful) which is when I consider it to start being effective.
    Sidenote I just thought of, the B&S winner used cannon cannon turrets and had lots of systems devoted to thrust, probably wouldn't of worked as well had he spent more mass on power capacitors.
    Cannons have the default old pierce effect which means each shot can deal damage to multiple blocks in a line. If you deal 50% more block damage, then you will be removing more blocks. This also means that unless your opponent has extremely thick and sloped armor, you will be able to score damage to systems first.


    To recap, you need more blocks to support an alpha derp, via lots of capacitors for the same weapon size of a dps oriented weapon.
    You need more armor to defend from cannon cannon punch than you do missile beam pierce.
    Missiles give you range and hit-chance advantage, but come at a cost of terrible reload and diminishing returns for blast size.

    Well that's my input. Any counter-arguments? Am I flat out mistaken or wrong on some points?
     
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    A short note based on the ships I've built: If you want missiles, never put multiple outputs on one computer. NEVER! Even with lock-ons. Especially because lock-on missiles will retain the lock if you switch from locking weapon to locking weapon.
    What that means is if you have two missile-beam or missile-pulse setups (Two CPUs), and you lock one, you can switch to the other (Provided you're still tracking the target) without losing the lock.

    Free multiple outputs!
     

    Master_Artificer

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    A short note based on the ships I've built: If you want missiles, never put multiple outputs on one computer. NEVER! Even with lock-ons. Especially because lock-on missiles will retain the lock if you switch from locking weapon to locking weapon.
    What that means is if you have two missile-beam or missile-pulse setups (Two CPUs), and you lock one, you can switch to the other (Provided you're still tracking the target) without losing the lock.

    Free multiple outputs!
    On missiles, if you have say 4 outputs on one computer, and each missile uses just under your maximum power cap (say 75%) that means each time you click your computer it will fire off one missile. So in this example you can fire off 4 missiles independently from one another with each click having its own reload timer. 4 computers in one! Although 4 reload timers on one computer does make it hard to see :P

    Was helpful back in the time of limited hotbar size, and also helful when making a WoT style clip shooter.
     
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    Yes, though it is a pain to see all those reload timers.

    However, multiple CPUs means multiple effects or secondaries (Ion missile followed by nuke, anyone?)
     

    Master_Artificer

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    I am supprised nobody called me out on not giving enough credence to alpha weapons being able to do, in some cases, 45 seconds of damage in like 2 and a half seconds.
    Come on people, lets get a discussion going! Poke holes in my argument and support your side of alpha > dps.
     
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    I think Artificer, you missed something. When talking about small ships, Alpha or DPS can both be very viable. I think that's why no one bothered to poke holes into your theory. In fact, I would go as far as to say, that each has their place and are situational as to weather or not they would come out on top in an engagement. And even small ships can have AMS turrets, so it all depends on the particular ships that are fighting each other.
     
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    If you want a nuke to get through, down the shields first. You have to have a weapon other than a missile, of any type, cause missiles, I've found, suck for shield damage (I don't use ion, I need that block damage on small-scale stuff) in all cases.
    I've found C-C-O to be highly effective in small block counts. We're talking 4-2-4 blocks. That's it. 50% secondary Cannon, 100% tertiary Overdrive, and it's capable of oneshotting advanced armor blocks.
    So my genius plan is to create a ship based off of turrets like that - supersmall PDTs en masse to cause a rapid and large amount of block damage.
    I have not tested this yet, unfortunately - I've been working on other projects.
    But I bet it works great - if I do it.
     
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    A powerful alpha hit can cripple a ship faster than a flurry of DPM-based weaponry (Damage per minute. Because DPS is too much like damage per shot), but only if it's effective. If you miss, you could very well be out of the fight before you know it. Therefore, alpha-based vessels function best working with DPM vessels. A la classic fighter/bomber combination. Fighters take out fighters, bombers go for big targets. That said, if a bomber hits a fighter, the fighter's probably done for.
     

    Lecic

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    If it is a dogfight, missile beam is too slow at lock on.

    In a 1v1 situation, I would go for missile missile with low missile support so the individual missile remains powerful. Then use AMC or Beam for supplementary weapon.
    Missile/Missile is useless for a fighter when your target can move faster than your missiles.

    For beam, use piercing. Explosive deals extremely low damage for a fighter's weapon. Piercing carries the damage to the blocks behind the enemy vessel and essentially doubles the damage once enemy shields are down (I think).
    Piercing does zero shield damage (except with missiles). I do not recommend using piercing on a small vessel when your ion and block destruction should probably be one and the same.

    A fighter should be using punch.

    (some people argue that the loss of damage per energy is too detrimental though)
    That's because it is too detrimental. The amount of blocks you have to spend on increasing power generation and power capacity from the x6 power consumption is ridiculous, and is especially too much for a small ship like a fighter.

    If you have enough spare power on your ship to install overdrive weapons, then you have TOO MUCH POWER in the first place.
     
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