New Damage Mechanics: 'Disabled' and 'Destroyed' Blocks, and AstroTech tweaks

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    This is an attempt to make AstroTech Beams great again.

    Right now, blocks are destroyed when they reach 0 HP. I propose that some blocks become disabled instead, and only become destroyed when they reach a certain negative HP value. This is generally for systems blocks, not hull or armor.

    As an example with made-up numbers because I'm too lazy to go read the wiki for realistic values, let's use Power Reactors. Let's say a normal, fully-operational Power Reactor has 100 HP. During combat, if it is damaged and reaches 0 HP it becomes disabled and has no effect on the ship anymore. And let's say the Power Reactor is a fairly durable block (since after all it is likely containing some kind of fusion or antimatter reaction), so it becomes destroyed at -500 HP. Or maybe even -1000 HP, but we'll stick with -500 for now.

    (Instead of negative HP another HP pool could be used, the effect is the same either way but this way does not require an additional pool.)

    How does this help us? This makes it fairly easy to disable ship systems, but makes it hard to actually destroy them. And since AstroTech beams can repair blocks but not replace them, AstroTech beams are now useful for doing field repairs. As long as the block has not reached its destruction threshold, AstroTech can repair it fully.

    The negative HP required for full block destruction can vary between block types, too. Hull, armor, and most decorative blocks should be destroyed at 0 HP so they don't enter a disabled state. Systems blocks could be all over the place, with essentials like power and thrusters being easy to disable but very hard to destroy, and non-essentials like weapons being much easier to destroy. There will need to be a balance to prevent designers from using tough systems blocks like armor.

    With this change, your ships will overall be much more durable and easier to repair so hopefully you're more likely to take it into combat. Combat will be more about disabling and capturing the other ships instead of utterly destroying them. Once you've taken it over, you can get it semi-operational again using AstroTech, though you'll likely have little or no weapons and armor left.

    AstroTech needs a couple tweaks. First, it should have an area-of-effect around its impact point scaled to the number of modules producing the beam, so a large beam has an area-of-effect allowing it to penetrate and repair deep systems blocks that are not exposed (similar to the explosive effect). And second, it should use resources to repair, perhaps a fixed proportion of alloyed metal mesh, crystal composite, and fertikeen capsules?

    As for replacing destroyed blocks, that part stays as it is now. You'll need to use a build block/ship core to repair by hand, or take it to a shipyard to replace (or use whatever shipyard repair mechanics we may get in the future).

    Finally, I suggest a weapons system combination that will ONLY damage blocks down to 0 hp and will not go negative. That weapon will be good for destroying hull and armor while only disabling systems, leaving systems in a state allowing you to field-repair the ship once defeated and captured.

    Thoughts?

    EDIT: Alternative idea

    As an alternative, ignore the idea about disabled-vs-destroyed and negative HP, and focus more on AstroTech. Allow AstroTech to replace destroyed blocks (obviously the game needs to store blueprints with ship cores first) but at a very high resource cost. Also, only allow it to replace SOME block types. Power systems, thrusters, hull (but not armor), etc. Just enough to do a field repair allowing you to make the ship mobile and take it to a shipyard for proper repair, but not necessarily make the ship battleworthy again.

    As part of that, split AstroTech into tiers. Basic AstroTech, Standard AstroTech, Advanced AstroTech. Each tier is capable of replacing more and more blocks, but it costs exponentially more power and resources. So Basic allows you to get a ship mobile, while Advanced could allow complete field repairs of armor and weapons but at an insane cost.
     
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    jayman38

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    Assuming this is only used for system blocks with relatively low HP, one of the HP bits for these specific blocks could be converted to a "minus" bit. This will allow blocks to have a range of HP from as low as -127 up to a maximum of +127. So a 25 HP reactor block gets disabled at 0 HP, and is finally destroyed at -100 HP.

    However, when you consider the immense size of weapon systems in popular use, you are still looking at a lot of totally-destroyed blocks. I would love to agree with this suggestion, but due to that fact of large weapon systems wiping multiple blocks, I don't think this change will be worth the effort.
     
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    First off I love the idea of astrotech beams having an area of effect. Perhaps explosive effect could be slaved to the astrotech to give that functionality without changing astrotech by itself? Personally I wish astrotech worked more like it does in robocraft where a beam can heal the entire ship as long as it is hit somewhere. (without replacing destroyed blocks). I do see the balance issues with tho so it won't happen.

    I have one issue with the negetive hp thing especially with the numbers you say
    destroyed at -500 HP. Or maybe even -1000 HP, but we'll stick with -500 for now
    I could see the system blocks acting as almost a second armor where smaller ships would have a much harder time penetrating and damaging the more important system blocks usually near the core of the ship like reactors, powercap, etc...(at least thats how i usually build).

    one question too would a block going into negetive hp keep effecting the ships total hp until it is destroyed?
     
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    That's a good point. It won't matter in titan-vs-titan battles. But it could between smaller ships. I'm not sure.

    As an alternative, ignore the idea about disabled-vs-destroyed and negative HP, and focus more on AstroTech. Allow AstroTech to replace destroyed blocks (obviously the game needs to store blueprints with ship cores first) but at a very high resource cost. Also, only allow it to replace SOME block types. Power systems, thrusters, hull (but not armor), etc. Just enough to do a field repair allowing you to make the ship mobile and take it to a shipyard for proper repair, but not necessarily make the ship battleworthy again.

    As part of that, split AstroTech into tiers. Basic AstroTech, Standard AstroTech, Advanced AstroTech. Each tier is capable of replacing more and more blocks, but it costs exponentially more power and resources. So Basic allows you to get a ship mobile, while Advanced could allow complete field repairs of armor and weapons but at an insane cost.
     

    Winterhome

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    I want something like this too. I've been saying exactly this for years. Can't remember the response I got from other people though.

    I'll upvote every time this idea comes up. \o/
     
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    i love the idea of system blocks shutting down at Zero HP and being destroyed at a certain negative HP count. Agreed, that it wont have much affect on larger ship battles, but that has to do with the scale of the weapons, and thats ok. say you want to disable a cargo ship on a supply run, you aren't going to want to use 8 in naval guns for that, but some 20 mm guns might do the trick. and having the astro beams with the same slave mechanics as the weapon systems would be a great way to effect emergency repairs to limp back to base.

    As far as Disabling a ship, while this is a great mechanic to add to the realism of a battle to the death, especially if there is a crew to start the repairs in the middle of combat ;);):rolleyes:, perhaps a more efficient way to disable a ship would be a weapon that damages system HP directly without damaging the rest of the ship. maybe this could be a new effect, not sure, it could unbalance the game if not handled correctly. But if it did work, all you would have to do to undo the effect would be to reset your systems.
     

    PLIX

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    then you could use them as armour that also does power production
    [doublepost=1481321622,1481321371][/doublepost][QUOTE="aRottenKomquat, post: 322072, member: 400580"
    As part of that, split AstroTech into tiers. Basic AstroTech, Standard AstroTech, Advanced AstroTech. Each tier is capable of replacing more and more blocks, but it costs exponentially more power and resources. So Basic allows you to get a ship mobile, while Advanced could allow complete field repairs of armor and weapons but at an insane cost.[/QUOTE]

    in starmade the only thing that should be tiered is armour (less need for triple layering) and factory (in order to remove the possibility of just spamming enchancers on 1 factory block)
     
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    then you could use them as armour that also does power production
    not very effective armor. they have no armor rating. basic hull has 75 hp and 50 armor, a power reactor has 25 hp and no armor. the reactor could shut down at zero hp and be destroyed at -25 hp, as an example, to help keep the balance
     

    Raisinbat

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    Right now, blocks are destroyed when they reach 0 HP. I propose that some blocks become disabled instead, and only become destroyed when they reach a certain negative HP value. This is generally for systems blocks, not hull or armor.

    As an example with made-up numbers because I'm too lazy to go read the wiki for realistic values, let's use Power Reactors. Let's say a normal, fully-operational Power Reactor has 100 HP. During combat, if it is damaged and reaches 0 HP it becomes disabled and has no effect on the ship anymore. And let's say the Power Reactor is a fairly durable block (since after all it is likely containing some kind of fusion or antimatter reaction), so it becomes destroyed at -500 HP. Or maybe even -1000 HP, but we'll stick with -500 for now.
    I don't see how this would work. The way weapons go through blocks, what's the difference between 0 HP and -100hp being the lower limit? Unless weapons ignore blocks at 0 and continue penetrating through to the next one, there's simply no difference as far as i can tell.

    Also keep in mind that any competently designed weapon doesn't even register block damage, but operates on how many blocks it destroys per shot/second. Even a 200 mass fighter should push 40 blocks per second in damage or more. Despite what schine wants to think individual blocks do not matter in combat. If you want repair beams to do anything they need to restore destroyed blocks. In factorio when a building is destroyed, it's replaced by a "ghost" building that's basically just a hologram with a 5 minute lifespan. Building drones can rebuild these ghosts from stored replacements, surely having a bit value for HP that indicates ghost block is manageable? Then you could have the astrotech beams restore the ghosts, and you can only repair the ship within the 5 minute span, and if the ghosts disappear they're permanently lost. That would eliminate the possibility of using astrotech to create resources out of nowhere.

    perhaps a more efficient way to disable a ship would be a weapon that damages system HP directly without damaging the rest of the ship.
    No. Just... No.