Instead of passing through the ship, taking friendly fire from a docked entity stops when it hits

[YamiHikari]

The key to this is that the ship would still not take damage. Basically, a lot of people like to put defense systems in their ships. What happens is that sometimes those defense systems like to shoot at enemies outside the ship instead of inside the ship, with their beams, missiles, and bullets passing clean through the ship they are docked to. This should be changed so that these systems can be more localized and internalized. Nobody likes it when a turret deep within the heart of a ship starts raining bullets on the enemies outside the ship. It neither looks good nor is fair. With this change more people will be inclined to put up defense systems inside their ships, allowing for more people to defend themselves against boarders.


EDIT:

In a rewording of this suggestion, what I am asking for is as follows:

1) When an entity fires a weapon and that weapon hits another entity in the same docking chain (whether the shooter is docked to or being docked to by it) the projectile stops when it collides with the docked entity, causing no damage to either entity.

2) Despite this friendly fire mechanic, projectiles will still pass through the ship that fired them, causing no damage (so we can still protect and conceal our weapons).

3) Turrets will not shoot at entities they cannot directly "see." If there is a solid wall between the turret at an enemy that is not part of the turret, itself, it will not shoot at that enemy (allowing us to put defensive turrets within our ships without worrying about them somehow shooting through the walls of our ships at enemies outside the ships).

 

[MacThule]

Basically, a lot of people like to put defense systems in their ships.

They should just hit what they hit, IMO, and shooting holes in your own hull is the price you pay for putting autocannons inside your own ship. Who does that IRL or in sci-fi? There's a reason why ships are typically defended by space 'rines or ship security personnel rather than powerful automated weapon systems.

The issue of them shooting at entities outside of the ship instead of waiting for an intruder could easily be solved by defining interior spaces with bounding boxes so weapons would only target within set bounds.

 

[Nosajimiki]

taking friendly fire from your own weapons is soooo bad. Most main-weapons turrets would blow your ship to pieces instantly, and all your AMS turrets would keep you "under-fire". This is because turrets have a firing arc so even if you prevent your barrel from lining up with your ship, it will still firing-arc into it. Don't believe me, but a stop effect on basically ANY non-orbital turret and try to use a jammer.

Also, keep in mind that adding the bumpers needed to keep your turrets from hitting your ship would make tons of collision lag. The most lag-free turrets are allowed to rotate 360deg, so this system would punish the most server-friendly designs.

 

[MacThule]

taking friendly fire from your own weapons is soooo bad. drum turrets would blow your ship to pieces instantly, and all your AMS turrets would keep you "under-fire". This is because turrets have a firing arc so even if you prevent your barrel from lining up with your ship, it will still firing-arc into it. Don't believe me, but a stop effect on basically ANY non-orbital turret and try to use a jammer.

I read the OP as specifically about interior turrets only.

I'm not sure the two could be addressed separately unless those interior spaces were explicitly defined in some way so that docked entities within them adopted different behaviors.

 

[Nosajimiki]

yes, but as is, there there is no distinction between the two, and even if I could designate something as an "interior turret", why would I when and exterior turret can exploit through to hit more? Even if you made weapons not phase though docked without causing damage, you'd still have a plethora of issues unless you could dramatically improve turret AI, but at that point, the objective really comes down to a matter of better turret AI, and the other stuff will become a moot point.

 

[jayman38]

I see this being useful as long as the weapon fire specifically checks the entire docking tree for null effect.
Rules:
1. If the bullet hits the same entity (I.e. the barrel entity that is firing the bullet), allow the bullet through.
2. If the bullet hits another entity that is part of the docking chain, either up or down, then the bullet is deleted without effect (doesn't prevent jamming, doesn't shoot out the hanger door, doesn't destroy another turret, etc., but most importantly, doesn't magically go through)
3. Otherwise, the bullet acts normally.

 

[Nosajimiki]

This still is a major problem if the AI is not fixed. You assume that your weapons are not constantly clipping your hull, but unless you use some variation of floating or VLS turrets, I can guarantee you are doing it all the time without even noticing it. This would result in most of your firepower just being deleted for no apparent reason.

 

[YamiHikari]

That i

I see this being useful as long as the weapon fire specifically checks the entire docking tree for null effect.
Rules:
1. If the bullet hits the same entity (I.e. the barrel entity that is firing the bullet), allow the bullet through.
2. If the bullet hits another entity that is part of the docking chain, either up or down, then the bullet is deleted without effect (doesn't prevent jamming, doesn't shoot out the hanger door, doesn't destroy another turret, etc., but most importantly, doesn't magically go through)
3. Otherwise, the bullet acts normally.

s actually what I was going for in my suggestion. I just couldn't quite word it right.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Incase you disagree because you do not understand AI firing-arcs: This turret will continue to shoot at ship in the red zone even if it can not turret down past 90deg, because AI enjoys a fire-arc that is different than the turning arc of your turret the same way you can shoot someone at the top left of your screen even though you are not directly pointed at them. This means that enemy ships just need to get close to you and you will be wasting all of the power that those turrets are using. While this could be avoided by putting all of your turrets way out from your ship (floating), this would ruin a lot of ship designs.

 

[MacThule]

why would I when and exterior turret can exploit through to hit more?

Are you rejecting discussion of possible future development directions because of what you correctly describe as an exploit or bug in the current build, as if that could never change in the future? This is all code. Anything can be changed. Bugs and exploits are particularly likely to change eventually. The OP is speculating about possible better ways forward in the future, not "what is the best current bug for the job right now;" that isn't invalidated or made pointless by existing game problems.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Are you rejecting discussion of possible future development directions because of what you correctly describe as an exploit or bug in the current build, as if that could never change in the future? This is all code. Anything can be changed. Bugs and exploits are particularly likely to change eventually. The OP is speculating about possible better ways forward in the future, not "what is the best current bug for the job right now;" that isn't invalidated or made pointless by existing game problems.

You are still missing the point; so, I will try to make this as direct as possible:

Fix the AI, and there is no problem
​

If the turrets don't fire when occluded, then you get the same effect without adding redundant collision detection slowing the game down, and IF the AI glitches and fires a shot that might clip a block or two into your ship due to maneuvering, you are not punishing the player by dropping a salvo that may have done several million damage for no reason other than a rounding error or something of the sort.

while this proposal may be realistic, when you approach it from a development perspective, it is not as performant or user friendly as AI level occlusion.

 

[YamiHikari]

You also have to remember that in the current system weapons do not consume power when firing. They only use power to maintain active status.

 

[Nosajimiki]

BTW, I apologize if that last statement read as hostile, that is not my intention. I respect your opinion from a realism perspective, but I am trying to consider it it from a development and playability perspective in terms of what un-intended side-effects true collision would have.

 

[YamiHikari]

BTW, I apologize if that last statement read as hostile, that is not my intention. I respect your opinion from a realism perspective, but I am trying to consider it it from a development and playability perspective in terms of what un-intended side-effects true collision would have.

You didn't sound very hostile to me. You were just asserting your point, albeit in a somewhat forceful manner. You do have a valid point, at that. The AI system in Starmade is definitely lacking, but collisions that don't happen when they should and happen when they shouldn't are still something that needs to be addressed. I think the best fixes for turrets should be this:

If the turret cannot "see" whatever its shooting at (if there is a solid opaque block between it and whatever its shooting at), it will not shoot at it.

If a weapon shoots the entity it is a part of (if something shoots itself) the projectile passes through.

If an entity shoots something else in the docking chain, regardless of position in the chain, the projectile stops when it hits that entity and causes no damage to either entity.

Taking these things into account would fix a large majority of the issues with docked entities shooting things they shouldn't.

 

[Spartan-228]

You know I have never seen a turret shoot through the hull of my ships or stations. I have seen them try and the round is stoped by my hull or shields, with no damage done. So other than its anoing to see interior turrets shoot at things they can't hit, I don't see the problem.

 

[jayman38]

Yup, a simple ray-check needs to be added to existing AI.

Suggested logic: if the current shot is occluded by anything, using a ray-check, even another hostile target, do not shoot. Plus, give the AI a 40% chance of acquiring a new target. (Don't make it 100%, or enemy ships will start running in interleaving patterns to make the AI continuously reacquire new targets before it can shoot, which actually might be cool, but would frustrate players with many AI turrets.)

However, this is really for another new suggestion and could benefit from some discussion and refinement.

 

[Levarith]

taking friendly fire from your own weapons is soooo bad. Most main-weapons turrets would blow your ship to pieces instantly, and all your AMS turrets would keep you "under-fire". This is because turrets have a firing arc so even if you prevent your barrel from lining up with your ship, it will still firing-arc into it. Don't believe me, but a stop effect on basically ANY non-orbital turret and try to use a jammer.

Also, keep in mind that adding the bumpers needed to keep your turrets from hitting your ship would make tons of collision lag. The most lag-free turrets are allowed to rotate 360deg, so this system would punish the most server-friendly designs.

Thats where the line of sight comes in... if it cant actually see the enemy it doesn't fire... so if something in it's docking chain blocks it from seeing the enemy it wont shoot.
[doublepost=1513909195,1513909051][/doublepost]At current, they will have to implement a system like this, because crew cannot move around a ship that is in combat without being shot. I have been killed multiple times by 360 degree turrets responding to a pirate spawning while i am walking around my ship/station

 

[Dire Venom]

Isn't this already a thing btw:?
An entity can shoot it's mounted weapons through it's self, and entities directly conected bellow it.
E.g Mother can shoot through Turret and point defense turret (attachted to turret).
Turret can shoot through point defense docked onto it's roof, but not it's mother and so on.

 

[Levarith]

No, i wish that was a thing... can't even walk around my own factory without the possibility of being fried by a turret 500m away shooting at a fighter 1km the other side of me

 

[Dire Venom]

No, i wish that was a thing... can't even walk around my own factory without the possibility of being fried by a turret 500m away shooting at a fighter 1km the other side of me

Turrent shots are blocked by the mother ship/station.
However due to lag/desync shots can still appear to phase through a couple of layers of blocks, same with missiles, however they have an explosion range thus you'd want to be behind a couple of layers if there's missiles flying about.

If your own turrets are hitting you through blocks it's a bug or de-sync. Jump in a ship turret and shoot at the ship it is docked too.
I guarentee it won't go through the ship and will be stopped by the first block it meets.