High Mass vs Low Mass-FTL Balance

[Vyor]

So, what is the problem with extreme mass ships? They are as nimble and as fast as a fighter... The new thruster update will fix this hopefully, so I am not about to talk about that. What I will talk about is FTL, and how to balance it for these big ships.


The bigger the FTL core(made out of FTL blocks) the longer you can travel at FTL speeds, however, the higher the mass of the ship is, the slower the ship goes while at FTL. For this system to work we need to measure speed in sectors/s while at FTL. This would allow use to say where we want to go, and activate the FTL, and have a timer come up for how long it will take. If you don't chart a course, it just says how far you have gone, and when FTL will end(you can cancel it manually).

This system allows for high mass ships to travel at FTL, while limiting the distance they can go. This adds downsides that are not currently existent.

 

[Aecetym]

Why balance big vs small with the small in favor just because it's less usefull ingame. Whenever a FTL or hyperdrive or ... gets intoduced in the game for all players (not by admin commands) it should be impossible for small fighter-like ships to travel by FTL. The bigger the ship the greater the distance it should be able to travel, making carriers for smaller ships somewhat a must have thing.

Now instead of adding FTL blocks in order to travel faster or longer, you should add a single block, a FTL block or something, that takes power from the ships storage instantaneously and jump to the set coordinates within the rang of it's powersupply. To keep fighters from using this FTL, you should have at least 1 mil storage power for example for the smallest possible distance to jump. The more power the greater the distance.

Now I used "jump" over "speed" cause it would make more sense just jumping to the coordinates instead of loading all those sectors for x seconds putting stress on the server without really needing to.

The downside for the bigger ships would be when they jump into a star (or some other ship destroying entity) or jump in a cluster of pirates with all it's power used.

No need to create downsides just because 1 fighter/smaller ship can't kill a battleship or titan or capital on it's own.

 

[Vyor]

Why balance big vs small with the small in favor just because it's less usefull ingame. Whenever a FTL or hyperdrive or ... gets intoduced in the game for all players (not by admin commands) it should be impossible for small fighter-like ships to travel by FTL. The bigger the ship the greater the distance it should be able to travel, making carriers for smaller ships somewhat a must have thing.

Now instead of adding FTL blocks in order to travel faster or longer, you should add a single block, a FTL block or something, that takes power from the ships storage instantaneously and jump to the set coordinates within the rang of it's powersupply. To keep fighters from using this FTL, you should have at least 1 mil storage power for example for the smallest possible distance to jump. The more power the greater the distance.

Now I used "jump" over "speed" cause it would make more sense just jumping to the coordinates instead of loading all those sectors for x seconds putting stress on the server without really needing to.

The downside for the bigger ships would be when they jump into a star (or some other ship destroying entity) or jump in a cluster of pirates with all it's power used.

No need to create downsides just because 1 fighter/smaller ship can't kill a battleship or titan or capital on it's own.

It prevents a big behemoth from just appearing in the middle of your space with no warning. Small ships can be used for scouting, like they are in real life. You could also have elite squadrons of fighter-bombers. Also, they wouldn't just be traveling super fast, it would be more like they enter a warp state, the game makes them invisible and incorporeal, and it basically teleports them to whatever sector they reached. Also, you can go as far as a fighter, you just need to sacrifice some firepower, armor, or shielding to free up some mass for more FTL blocks. Carriers would be useful as you can make sure that all fighters and bombers come from the same spot, and have a place to retreat to and lick their wounds.

 

[ltmauve]

This adds downsides that are not currently existent

Wait, so big ships are currently capable of FTL?
Look, provided large ships get their needed speed nerf, there should be no need to have mass-based limits on FTL jump distance.
Also, having FTL be a travel thing would be annoying. Look, the point of FTL is to get rid of transit times. Having a brief moment during the transit would help. However, I am not a fan of FTL travel times.
The system should be set up so that there is a threshold of FTL capability that is practical at each size for an extremely dedicated ship, and less capability for less dedicated ships. This should decrease as mass increases. There is no reason even the mightiest titan cannot jump around like my scoutship, but it would be incredibly impractical, to the point where why even bother?

With that said, let me propose a more concrete system that doesn't have those problems.
First, any ship that simply has an FTL computer can use beacons to jump to any other beacon. Each beacon has a mass limit of what can be FTL'ed all at once. This mass limit is a reservoir with a cap, meaning that if you jump something right at the mass limit, you have to wait to jump even a shuttle.
Second, any ship with drive units can perform jumps without a beacon (free-jumps) to any sector in their range. This range is determined by the ratio of FTL drive to the rest of the ship. However, the energy costs and time costs for a free-jump increase exponentially with the size of the drive, meaning that larger ships must accept a trade-off between range and jump frequency, while smaller ships can have both. Free-jumps, while charging, reduce thrust, energy regen, and shield regen.

 

[Vyor]

Wait, so big ships are currently capable of FTL?
Look, provided large ships get their needed speed nerf, there should be no need to have mass-based limits on FTL jump distance.
Also, having FTL be a travel thing would be annoying. Look, the point of FTL is to get rid of transit times. Having a brief moment during the transit would help. However, I am not a fan of FTL travel times.
The system should be set up so that there is a threshold of FTL capability that is practical at each size for an extremely dedicated ship, and less capability for less dedicated ships. This should decrease as mass increases. There is no reason even the mightiest titan cannot jump around like my scoutship, but it would be incredibly impractical, to the point where why even bother?

With that said, let me propose a more concrete system that doesn't have those problems.
First, any ship that simply has an FTL computer can use beacons to jump to any other beacon. Each beacon has a mass limit of what can be FTL'ed all at once. This mass limit is a reservoir with a cap, meaning that if you jump something right at the mass limit, you have to wait to jump even a shuttle.
Second, any ship with drive units can perform jumps without a beacon (free-jumps) to any sector in their range. This range is determined by the ratio of FTL drive to the rest of the ship. However, the energy costs and time costs for a free-jump increase exponentially with the size of the drive, meaning that larger ships must accept a trade-off between range and jump frequency, while smaller ships can have both. Free-jumps, while charging, reduce thrust, energy regen, and shield regen.

Fair enough... always liked the idea of a more mass effect style of doing it.


However, you are off on what I want. I don't want you to have to wait several minutes, there would be a short period before you reach the destination, but it would not be more than a minute at most. The larger ships in my system would be able to go FTL, the distance would be limited, but it could do it. A ship built for FTL would be effective no matter what, so that isn't a problem. The smaller scout ships have a smaller charge times, are more maneuverable, harder to be seen, and have a longer range. Hence why speed and time are resources.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

I guess my vision is different than Yours

I wish for bigger ships being able to jump around, without using any beacons (but if used then they'll allow for faster travel), while smaller ships mostly would use beacons to jump from sector to sector.
And You want smaller ships jumping around and bigger ones using beacons.

I can see both good sides and bad sides for Yours and mine visions, i guess it's a matter of preferences.

 

[Vyor]

I guess my vision is different than Yours

I wish for bigger ships being able to jump around, without using any beacons (but if used then they'll allow for faster travel), while smaller ships mostly would use beacons to jump from sector to sector.
And You want smaller ships jumping around and bigger ones using beacons.

I can see both good sides and bad sides for Yours and mine visions, i guess it's a matter of preferences.

Indeed. Server side options FTW!

 

[ltmauve]

As long as the FTL-mass coefficient can be negative, both of these are possible on the same system.

 

[MineCatFTW]

Thing is, there is very little purpose for FTL travel with the scale of the universe as it is right now. Most servers have at least a hundred max speed, and space in general is very cramped. Thus, this needs to change before FTL becomes truly useful.

 

[Vyor]

Thing is, there is very little purpose for FTL travel with the scale of the universe as it is right now. Most servers have at least a hundred max speed, and space in general is very cramped. Thus, this needs to change before FTL becomes truly useful.

True enough, but the universe will be spread apart, it's just a matter of time.

 

[Vyor]

As long as the FTL-mass coefficient can be negative, both of these are possible on the same system.

True enough!

 

[RedDragonflyxx]

True enough, but the universe will be spread apart, it's just a matter of time.

How is space "cramped" currently?

As long as the FTL-mass coefficient can be negative, both of these are possible on the same system.

Exactly what I want to see!

Look, provided large ships get their needed speed nerf, there should be no need to have mass-based limits on FTL jump distance.
Also, having FTL be a travel thing would be annoying. Look, the point of FTL is to get rid of transit times. Having a brief moment during the transit would help. However, I am not a fan of FTL travel times.
The system should be set up so that there is a threshold of FTL capability that is practical at each size for an extremely dedicated ship, and less capability for less dedicated ships. This should decrease as mass increases. There is no reason even the mightiest titan cannot jump around like my scoutship, but it would be incredibly impractical, to the point where why even bother?

With that said, let me propose a more concrete system that doesn't have those problems.
First, any ship that simply has an FTL computer can use beacons to jump to any other beacon. Each beacon has a mass limit of what can be FTL'ed all at once. This mass limit is a reservoir with a cap, meaning that if you jump something right at the mass limit, you have to wait to jump even a shuttle.
Second, any ship with drive units can perform jumps without a beacon (free-jumps) to any sector in their range. This range is determined by the ratio of FTL drive to the rest of the ship. However, the energy costs and time costs for a free-jump increase exponentially with the size of the drive, meaning that larger ships must accept a trade-off between range and jump frequency, while smaller ships can have both. Free-jumps, while charging, reduce thrust, energy regen, and shield regen.

Why limit beacon mass limits, so larger ships have to stay in sublight? There should be no range limit, but a travel time of 1 second/sector +- 15 seconds as a base wait time in-transit to see the graphic. I disagree with any harsh distance limits but think that having a field stability setup would be nice, that way you could design a scout ship that has many stabilizers and does not/will... eventually de-warp. I think the same should work for travel times. Fighters and Titans should have a hard time accommodating an effective FTL drive, but instead use stationary portals, server-side options could affect how difficult this is and thus influence the priority of creating portals to get around.
P.S. I disagree with power storage being necessary as my designs use power generators to support continuous power supply as a matter of principle (#no bias :D)

 

[ltmauve]

I put in mass limits on beacons to increase the resources needed to dropping in an entire fleet right at someone's doorstep. Perhaps some form of "interdiction" station block could be added to prevent jump-ins to that sector.

Also, not a fan of staring at a graphic effect for two minutes when I jump 100 sectors. I'd rather be charging for 2 minutes then staring for two minutes.

Also, I don't want power storage being necessary. I imagine that power would be converted into tacyhons, and that's the actual charging/energy cost mechanic.

 

[Jack Caos]

again i like to come up with my idea + something new:
Idea: ftl-controler block + ftl-locks : control block can be mapped like a weapon and the blocks are to calculating the ftl-power specs in terms of shape, count and size of the ftl-block clusters. then we have effect blocks, like the ones in the devbuild for weapons, but these are to define the style of FTL like warp, ftl jump, hyper drive, what ever you want...
and maybe you can only jum into voidsectors that would make ftl usefull but would prevent a big fleet from jumping into a populated sector
but they could appear on the doorsteps before the reinforements arive.
and yes we have to calculate the mass of a ship and stuff into the calculation for needed energy and loadup-time or travel-time but litle ships could have a ftl system which is pretty small maybe a controler and 2 blocks plus some energytanks for having the power to use this...

the new: bubbly shields instead of the system we have now. i now this is not really ftl based stuff, but it will give small ships again a use because they can fligh through the bubble and deliver damage without having a shield to kill...

 

[RedDragonflyxx]

I put in mass limits on beacons to increase the resources needed to dropping in an entire fleet right at someone's doorstep. Perhaps some form of "interdiction" station block could be added to prevent jump-ins to that sector.

Also, not a fan of staring at a graphic effect for two minutes when I jump 100 sectors. I'd rather be charging for 2 minutes then staring for two minutes.

Also, I don't want power storage being necessary. I imagine that power would be converted into tacyhons, and that's the actual charging/energy cost mechanic.

Simple solution, make it a field that ships have to pass through to warp, that field only lasts a short time which is extended via an upgrade. Then add a 30 sec cooldown to slow the oncoming storm.

I put in mass limits on beacons to increase the resources needed to dropping in an entire fleet right at someone's doorstep. Perhaps some form of "interdiction" station block could be added to prevent jump-ins to that sector.

Also, not a fan of staring at a graphic effect for two minutes when I jump 100 sectors. I'd rather be charging for 2 minutes then staring for two minutes.

Also, I don't want power storage being necessary. I imagine that power would be converted into tacyhons, and that's the actual charging/energy cost mechanic.

Good point, but maybe the math could follow a curve, I can't think of the implementation mathematically off hand (derp) but 100 sectors could take less time than 150 sectors, but there is a greater time difference between 50 a sector travel time and a 100 sector travel time than a 100 sector-150 sector travel time.

 

[Vyor]

How is space "cramped" currently?

try to fly a good thirty seconds in 1 direction without having anything pop up in your radar thing... next come back and inform me that this task is impossible...

 

[Jack Caos]

anyone remembers the visual ftl effect fro homeworld? maybe thats the clue in balancing
this rectangular field going from front of the ship to end of the ship -> after that the ship has jumped.

this effect obviously needs mor time for longer ships. And maybe is slower the more blocks it has to pass at once.

 

[whiterhino16]

I want ftl ships to be more like buses. They have to be huge and mostly devoted to it. This way, you wont teleport in with your one-man-army ship and kill everything. I don't think small ftl ships should be slower, I think they should be nonexistent! I want a use for building a massive ship, other than to get eaten by fighters. The point of an ftl ship is to come in and deliver some ships away from the battlefield, bringing it into the battlefield will only get it destroyed.

 

[mrsinister]

Thing is, there is very little purpose for FTL travel with the scale of the universe as it is right now. Most servers have at least a hundred max speed, and space in general is very cramped. Thus, this needs to change before FTL becomes truly useful.

Well, quite a bit of us have increased our sector sizes to 10,000 ,which makes for an amazing gameplay experience.

 

[Vyor]

I want ftl ships to be more like buses. They have to be huge and mostly devoted to it. This way, you wont teleport in with your one-man-army ship and kill everything. I don't think small ftl ships should be slower, I think they should be nonexistent! I want a use for building a massive ship, other than to get eaten by fighters. The point of an ftl ship is to come in and deliver some ships away from the battlefield, bringing it into the battlefield will only get it destroyed.

WHAT?!?!?!?!