Flight Physics

[Theodore_William]

Quick question. Anyone else have an issue with the flight physics? Particularly with smaller, faster ships? The Newtonian system is nice for larger ships, but I feel fighter/bomber type craft really need an atmospheric type system. Thoughts? Is there a way to change the physics in the config, or is this suggestion thread material?

 

[DrTarDIS]

I think newtonian physics are exactly what's needed. I think your problem is that you're used to "fish tank" space sims and just need more practice with newtonian flight. Kinda like Kahn's problem.

Reccomendatins:
Rebind up and down(Y axis movement) to q and e like with astro flight.
Rebind rotation to z and x,
and rebind flight/build mode toggle to something else (I use space...)

Alternatively, get a six axis controller (eg PS3 controller) and go analog. Gets tricky to be used to holding the controller a specific way, but once you do you can pull off moves that leave your opponents terrified and flabbergasted. Even the old wing commander games often ended up as "fish tank" fighters, but you can adapt many of the old moves to starmade.
https://download.wcnews.com/files/manuals/Wing Commander Academy Manual - Complete.pdf Page 27 and 28 Show one of the simplest but most effective moves: The Afterburner Slide. You can adapt it by changing left/right 30degrees with up/down.

Once you master it you can add a "corkscrew" to the maneuver and use left/right/up/down thrust while rotating to make AI completely unable to hit you even with 8000 accuracy setting.

Flight in any setting is a matter of practice to gain mastery.

 

[Zoolimar]

Thoughts? Is there a way to change the physics in the config, or is this suggestion thread material?

Wasn't there an option for the ship to brake automatically if you don't push the accelerator button? Or did it got axed?

 

[madman Captain]

Wasn't there an option for the ship to brake automatically if you don't push the accelerator button? Or did it got axed?

Yes but the impact of the autodampener on the flight is a joke and dosent help anyway if you want to fly forward after a curve and not sidewards.

 

[Alphajim]

I don't see the point of an atmospheric flight model in a space game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It makes no sense to change your flight vector without applying any force. And don't use the "it's a game, we don't care about reality" as an atmospheric flight model has nothing to do in a space game (well, except in atmospheres)

 

[Valck]

I feel fighter/bomber type craft really need an atmospheric type system

Great Scott! "It's all about managing expectations"... ;)

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Atmospheric flight makes little to no sense in this stage of the game for three reasons.

1) The vast majority of small craft created in StarMade are not aerodynamically sound.
Unless your fighter/bomber is shaped something like like a traditional aircraft, ...you will not be able to achieve the lift and drag needed for atmospheric maneuvers.

2) Planets have not yet been resigned and the current planets so too small that there is no where for atmospheric lift and drag to take place in any capacity other than a quick fly-by.

3) In space, there is minimal drag, minimal (observable) gravity, and no capacity for lift so control surfaces will not work. Only directional thrusters will allow you to alter speed, ship facing and and direction of movement.

The OP is asking for something that cannot exist in reality and is hard to approximate in this game. The closest you can get to this flight model is the ability to turn while thrusting in a straight line. The forward inertia will carry you in your starting direction but can slowly be compensated for with more forward thrust combined with a change in heading. The game Elite Dangerous pulls this off very well with a system called "flight assist".

 

[madman Captain]

The OP is asking for something that cannot exist in reality and is hard to approximate in this game. The closest you can get to this flight model is the ability to turn while thrusting in a straight line. The forward inertia will carry you in your starting direction but can slowly be compensated for with more forward thrust combined with a change in heading. The game Elite Dangerous pulls this off very well with a system called "flight assist".

And it would be really nice if this flight assist would become commen standard in this game.

 

[Valck]

And for some it would be really nice if they could have this flight assist would become commen standard in this game

... while others prefer the pseudo-newtonian flight model.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

And it would be really nice if this flight assist would become commen standard in this game.

... while others prefer the pseudo-newtonian flight model.

How about adding it to the mobility chamber system? Give it a low power draw and anyone can easily add/remove this feature on their ships.

Edit: and while they're at it, Schine could make an extension chamber to the anti-grav mobility chamber; "auto orient with planet". This feature would give what the OP wants for when the universe and planet updates come out in the year... Ummm... 2021.

 

[madman Captain]

... while others prefer the pseudo-newtonian flight model.

I only would like it when executed like in Avorion or Elite Dangerous, in this both games flying with newtonian flight model feels good.

How about adding it to the mobility chamber system? Give it a low power draw and anyone can easily add/remove this feature on their ships.

Edit: and while they're at it, Schine could make an extension chamber to the anti-grav mobility chamber; "auto orient with planet". This feature would give what the OP wants for when the universe and planet updates come out in the year... Ummm... 2021.

Just make it toggle per key (not hotbar) so you can switch it like I do in Elite Dangeous with my Joystick controll you can do some cool manuvers by combining both.

 

[Theodore_William]

Thank you for all the replies! “Atmospheric” was not my greatest choice of wording. For a little bit of background, I’ve greatly enjoyed Ace Combat. So “roll and nose up” is what I’m used to, if that makes more sense. I fully realize that lift and drag and actual aerodynamic design are far from practical features at this point. I won’t lie, lots of Star Wars ship battles flashed through my mind(again, I know that StarMade is NOT Star Wars. Just reference).

I am going to try DrTarDis’s suggestion, though.

Flight assist is similar to what I’m thinking. A more immediate response to a change in direction is. At the moment, there’s a very gradual shift and it’s...very strange.

Being able to toggle between the two different modes would be very nice. I can definitely see a skilled pilot zipping around an opponent, switching to Newtonian, laying down some fire, then dodging and weaving again. It requires a whole lot of momentum shifting that I haven’t quite figured out yet.

Edit: So I managed to achieve more responsive turning, but it required just over a third of the blocks to be thrusters. It sounds reasonable for the type of craft, but that is still a very high ratio. Thoughts?

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Thank you for all the replies! “Atmospheric” was not my greatest choice of wording. For a little bit of background, I’ve greatly enjoyed Ace Combat. So “roll and nose up” is what I’m used to, if that makes more sense. I fully realize that lift and drag and actual aerodynamic design are far from practical features at this point. I won’t lie, lots of Star Wars ship battles flashed through my mind(again, I know that StarMade is NOT Star Wars. Just reference).

I am going to try DrTarDis’s suggestion, though.

Flight assist is similar to what I’m thinking. A more immediate response to a change in direction is. At the moment, there’s a very gradual shift and it’s...very strange.

Being able to toggle between the two different modes would be very nice. I can definitely see a skilled pilot zipping around an opponent, switching to Newtonian, laying down some fire, then dodging and weaving again. It requires a whole lot of momentum shifting that I haven’t quite figured out yet.

Edit: So I managed to achieve more responsive turning, but it required just over a third of the blocks to be thrusters. It sounds reasonable for the type of craft, but that is still a very high ratio. Thoughts?

Have you tried altering your thruster configuration?



By default, 50% of your thrust is rotational with the other 50% being straight line directional (forward/reverse, lateral, vertical). You might try giving some of that vertical and lateral thrust to your turning thrust. It's not a perfect solution but that would be more likely to resemble the kind of movement we see in Star Wars and Star Trek. After all, how often do we seen an X-Wing, the Enterprise or an Imperial Star Destroyer move sideways.

The "auto dampeners" are a relatively weak form of flight assist but cannot be toggled on and off like in Elite Dangerous. I agree that binding this to a key or controller button would be a great advantage for pilots.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Thank you for all the replies! “Atmospheric” was not my greatest choice of wording. For a little bit of background, I’ve greatly enjoyed Ace Combat. So “roll and nose up” is what I’m used to, if that makes more sense. I fully realize that lift and drag and actual aerodynamic design are far from practical features at this point. I won’t lie, lots of Star Wars ship battles flashed through my mind(again, I know that StarMade is NOT Star Wars. Just reference).

I am going to try DrTarDis’s suggestion, though.

Flight assist is similar to what I’m thinking. A more immediate response to a change in direction is. At the moment, there’s a very gradual shift and it’s...very strange.

Being able to toggle between the two different modes would be very nice. I can definitely see a skilled pilot zipping around an opponent, switching to Newtonian, laying down some fire, then dodging and weaving again. It requires a whole lot of momentum shifting that I haven’t quite figured out yet.

Edit: So I managed to achieve more responsive turning, but it required just over a third of the blocks to be thrusters. It sounds reasonable for the type of craft, but that is still a very high ratio. Thoughts?

If you just want TURNING to be closer to Red Baron or Ace Combat. Build your ships WIDE instead of LONG. Because of the mechanics of starmade. This shape will "fly" more like an atmos fighter: You'll be able to noseup/down quicly, left/right rot skid slower, and rotate-while lifting-to-turn-faster like you'd expect from an atmos fighter

And this shape will be a sluggish noob-ship in either left/right or noseup/down rotation. It's essentially a strafing-long-range-only shape

While a VERTICAL ship will act more like a common FPS, eg PuBG or Counterstrike.

 

[Theodore_William]

Have you tried altering your thruster configuration?

View attachment 49983

By default, 50% of your thrust is rotational with the other 50% being straight line directional (forward/reverse, lateral, vertical). You might try giving some of that vertical and lateral thrust to your turning thrust. It's not a perfect solution but that would be more likely to resemble the kind of movement we see in Star Wars and Star Trek. After all, how often do we seen an X-Wing, the Enterprise or an Imperial Star Destroyer move sideways.

The "auto dampeners" are a relatively weak form of flight assist but cannot be toggled on and off like in Elite Dangerous. I agree that binding this to a key or controller button would be a great advantage for pilots.

I had repeatedly thought of that, but for whatever reason didn’t follow through. I’ll have to give it a shot after work. Will rotational thrust affect just the roll? Or will it affect pitch and yaw as well?

If you just want TURNING to be closer to Red Baron or Ace Combat. Build your ships WIDE instead of LONG. Because of the mechanics of starmade. This shape will "fly" more like an atmos fighter: You'll be able to noseup/down quicly, left/right rot skid slower, and rotate-while lifting-to-turn-faster like you'd expect from an atmos fighter

And this shape will be a sluggish noob-ship in either left/right or noseup/down rotation. It's essentially a strafing-long-range-only shape

While a VERTICAL ship will act more like a common FPS, eg PuBG or Counterstrike.

Ah yes, the B-2. I’m actually comfortable with my current design for a fighter, I’m just trying to get the thrust balanced correctly. When i move on the bombers, though, I definitely will look at the B-2, especially with the functionality of the dumb missiles.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Ah yes, the B-2. I’m actually comfortable with my current design for a fighter, I’m just trying to get the thrust balanced correctly. When i move on the bombers, though, I definitely will look at the B-2, especially with the functionality of the dumb missiles.

Yo misunderstand. it's the SHAPE that determines the speed of rotation of a ship. the most

If your ship/fighter is LONG it will be SLOWER rotating left/right/up/down, and FASTER in a roll. If you want to be able to "roll left and pull up" to execute a tight left turn, this Shape will be poor for that flight mechanic.

If a ship is wide rather than long or tall, it will nose up/down quickly, turn left/right slowly, and roll slowly. This is closer to standard Flightsims like Ace Combat.

If a ship is Tall, it will turn left/right quickly, but roll slowly and nose up/down slowly. This is closer to a FPS.

Try this: build 3 ships out of a core, a thruster, and a powerblock, and 50 of any hull.

in #1 use red symmetry and ONLY bult 25 out in a straight lie to either side (final size prob 51 wide)
In #2 Use Green symmetry and build it 51 tall
in #3 use blue symmetry and build it 51 long

Use "f" to select target on one of them, then use F1+F8 with your single player admin powers to jump between them and just spend a minute spinning around in various directions with each one.
I am betting Tye #1 of those 3 simple example ships will "feel more right" to you than either #2 or #3.
It's probably going to be that the "shape you're happy with" is the primary cause of the "maneuvering you are unhappy with." Alternativey, you could use low-mass-invisible blocks like Area triggers on the fighter you are happy with to expand it's X dimension and "retard" it's flight characteristics without changing it's look.

 

[kiddan]

Reccomendatins:
Rebind up and down(Y axis movement) to q and e like with astro flight.
Rebind rotation to z and x,
and rebind flight/build mode toggle to something else (I use space...)

RIP legacy default controls.

 

[Captain Fortius]

It's not about what is realistic, it's about what is good gameplay!

An atmospheric flight model is just more fun for me.
Then again, some fancy refined individuals might prefer the newtonian model.

In my opinion, Inertial Dampening should be made more powerful. That's the simplest solution; Set a single variable and problem solved. And it's totally optional to use.
Later, if time and effort allows, maybe make dampening scaleable. Perhaps boosted by a reactor module. (not going to call it a chamber; a reactor chamber is the room in which the reactor sits.)
That way, you can customise your design, and you get to fly like an atmospheric flyer. In space. And it can be explained away by being some sort of momentum-nullifying super-sciency space technology. Doesn't hurt realism more than a warp drive or a fuelless perpetual energy source.
Or you can turn it off and get to fiddle with your vectors to your heart's content.
An improved HUD with a three-axis speedometer would be useful for both modes though. Perhaps some graphical projections too, drawing out the path you'll fly, and the directions in which forces affect you - gravity, collisions and tractor beams included.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

I had repeatedly thought of that, but for whatever reason didn’t follow through. I’ll have to give it a shot after work. Will rotational thrust affect just the roll? Or will it affect pitch and yaw as well?

Modifying your rotational thrust settings will affect your pitch, yaw and roll. Unfortunately there is no way to separate these using the thrust management menu.

I recommend following DrTarDIS ' advice and use the dimensions of your ship to alter the individual rotation axes. When your ship exceeds a certain mass, its individual dimensions and mass distribution along each dimension will determine which of your rotational axes is the fastest.

 

[Theodore_William]

Yo misunderstand. it's the SHAPE that determines the speed of rotation of a ship. the most

If your ship/fighter is LONG it will be SLOWER rotating left/right/up/down, and FASTER in a roll. If you want to be able to "roll left and pull up" to execute a tight left turn, this Shape will be poor for that flight mechanic.

If a ship is wide rather than long or tall, it will nose up/down quickly, turn left/right slowly, and roll slowly. This is closer to standard Flightsims like Ace Combat.

If a ship is Tall, it will turn left/right quickly, but roll slowly and nose up/down slowly. This is closer to a FPS.

Try this: build 3 ships out of a core, a thruster, and a powerblock, and 50 of any hull.

in #1 use red symmetry and ONLY bult 25 out in a straight lie to either side (final size prob 51 wide)
In #2 Use Green symmetry and build it 51 tall
in #3 use blue symmetry and build it 51 long

Use "f" to select target on one of them, then use F1+F8 with your single player admin powers to jump between them and just spend a minute spinning around in various directions with each one.
I am betting Tye #1 of those 3 simple example ships will "feel more right" to you than either #2 or #3.
It's probably going to be that the "shape you're happy with" is the primary cause of the "maneuvering you are unhappy with." Alternativey, you could use low-mass-invisible blocks like Area triggers on the fighter you are happy with to expand it's X dimension and "retard" it's flight characteristics without changing it's look.

Modifying your rotational thrust settings will affect your pitch, yaw and roll. Unfortunately there is no way to separate these using the thrust management menu.

I recommend following DrTarDIS ' advice and use the dimensions of your ship to alter the individual rotation axes. When your ship exceeds a certain mass, its individual dimensions and mass distribution along each dimension will determine which of your rotational axes is the fastest.

Ah. Got it now. I can relagate my current design to drone fodder craft and move on to a more refined, more robust fighter craft.

It's not about what is realistic, it's about what is good gameplay!

An atmospheric flight model is just more fun for me.
Then again, some fancy refined individuals might prefer the newtonian model.

In my opinion, Inertial Dampening should be made more powerful. That's the simplest solution; Set a single variable and problem solved. And it's totally optional to use.

Later, if time and effort allows, maybe make dampening scaleable. Perhaps boosted by a reactor module. (not going to call it a chamber; a reactor chamber is the room in which the reactor sits.)
That way, you can customise your design, and you get to fly like an atmospheric flyer. In space. And it can be explained away by being some sort of momentum-nullifying super-sciency space technology. Doesn't hurt realism more than a warp drive or a fuelless perpetual energy source.
Or you can turn it off and get to fiddle with your vectors to your heart's content.
An improved HUD with a three-axis speedometer would be useful for both modes though. Perhaps some graphical projections too, drawing out the path you'll fly, and the directions in which forces affect you - gravity, collisions and tractor beams included.

You’re missing the general point here. The Newtonian system is far simpler to program than atmospheric flight simulation. On top of that, being able to toggle in and out of two totally different systems would be too insane. Making it a block would just allow people with massive, irregularly designed ships to move them in ways that would make both systems cry. Part of the gameplay that they are aiming for is building a ship that acts the way it is designed. If it doesn’t act they way you want(my ship), you have to redesign(as suggested). You can’t force the physics to do what you want, but you can design the ship in such a way that it acts the way you want. The atmospheric flight system is just the Newtonian system with added values and forces that are difficult to program, especially in a scalable game.

(Am I understanding it now, guys?)