Dual Distribution Model

    jayman38

    Precentor-Primus, pro-tempore
    Joined
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages
    2,518
    Reaction score
    787
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    I recommend having two different downloads for Starmade. They will both have the same resources. The difference will be in the configuration files.
    1. Roleplay/Builder Edition
    2. Combat Edition

    I say the game absolutely needs to be distributed in at least two forms, because of the disparity between Scifi media, and the reality of needing limited systems. In short, Scifi media shows ships as empty vessels, with many rooms, and very few (but highly effective) systems. On the other hand, combat-optimized building systems emphasizes system building versus rooms and role-play-spaces.

    So in the one game of Starmade you have two diametrically-opposed camps:
    The combat competitors versus the creative builders.

    Take this deckplan as an example of a standard Scifi "floorplan". It's almost nothing but rooms.

    Where did you say you wanted the hyperdrive? In the overhead compartment? In the wing with the fuel?

    The following floorplan is a little more reasonably balanced between walkable floorspace and systems, but still has a huge floorspace-to-systems ratio.


    These kinds of deckplans are great for shows and movies, where the stars of the show are seen discussing their situations during long walks through corridors, doorways, rooms, and elevator cabs.

    This is generally where the roleplay and re-creation builders want to be. Lots of floor space. Lots of detail. Very few "system blocks". Translated to Starmade, that translates to high-output, high-efficiency systems, of which few are needed to make the ship fully functional and fly-able.

    Now compare that with the combat competitor's standard ship layout. They -might- have a core room with a little walking space, but their floor-space is rarely going to exceed 1% of the ship's layout.

    As long as you have all systems with the same effectiveness, the roleplay/recreation ships are going to be positively decimated and outperformed at every turn by competitive ships packed with systems.

    How do you reconcile the two camps in one game? I think you should offer two sets of downloads. One for competitors, and one for creative builders, with wildly different default configurations.

    Everybody gets to feel like they are downloading the "real" game, not a pale imitator, and they get the system default configuration the conforms best to their play-style.

    The real trick, server-side is to have the "type" of game prioritize servers that follow that version's "philosophy". I.e. Combat-downloaders connect to combat-style servers, while role-play-downloaders connect to builder-style servers.

    We can do this manually now, but all too often, the two camps get onto the same server and try to play by the same configuration, but with opposing mindsets. It just doesn't work. the builders feel like they are outgunned (and boy, are they!), while competitors prefer raw performance and don't get a lot of fun out of poking holes in a builder's weaker creation.
     

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,107
    Reaction score
    1,228
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    No. Splitting developer resources between two versions of the game is a dumb idea. The game should not be balanced around something that is inherently imbalanced- RP. Balance the game around PvP, and run your own custom configs and rules if you want special RP servers.
     

    Raisinbat

    Raging Troll
    Joined
    Dec 29, 2014
    Messages
    459
    Reaction score
    269
    1. Roleplay/Builder Edition
    I never understood this, why does roleplay care if the ships are imballanced or not? Does roleplay require the mechanics to force interiors, and if so why?
     

    Lone_Puppy

    Me, myself and I.
    Joined
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages
    1,274
    Reaction score
    529
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    I see where you're coming from, but this can be achieved with servers that cater for these specific types of play.
     

    jayman38

    Precentor-Primus, pro-tempore
    Joined
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages
    2,518
    Reaction score
    787
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    I never understood this, why does roleplay care if the ships are imballanced or not? Does roleplay require the mechanics to force interiors, and if so why?
    Builders would like to protect their ships from attack. Sure, you could keep it docked to homebase, but any given "review" video looks a lot better showing the ship flying. On the other hand, for some builders, it's not so much a matter of imbalance on the roleplay/builder side as a difficulty in getting the ship to act the way the builder thinks it should act. (Sluggish controls when the thrusters can't keep up with ship's mass and all that.)

    It's something that came to mind when I was watching RabidBat's video at this post. In short, he talked about making the ship as a recreation, and then being disappointed when a power update caused the ship to fail to work as expected. (The old story of no shooting and no thrusting at the same time....)

    I have seen this same story before, where a builder puts relatively small thruster groups on his ship, based on blueprints or what he saw in the show, or whatever, and it is not nearly as nimble as on a TV show or movie. So he adds more and more thrusters until it is nimble, and presto! He's got a ship that is half thruster, and doesn't even look like the source material anymore.

    Similarly, RabidBat was disappointed that the power system didn't work right with AI, so he couldn't take his recreations out as a fleet, even after implementing the new power system.

    No. Splitting developer resources between two versions of the game is a dumb idea. The game should not be balanced around something that is inherently imbalanced- RP. Balance the game around PvP, and run your own custom configs and rules if you want special RP servers.
    I don't think the game actually needs to balanced on the builder side, so the split would not be 50/50. I'm thinking more like 99/1, with just a little bit of effort going into making sure the configs for build servers are not entirely self-defeating. I think the player base could point out any problematic imbalances on the builder version and provide helpful suggestions for bringing it back into balance.

    I see where you're coming from, but this can be achieved with servers that cater for these specific types of play.
    Yes. And I've seen the setting of some amazing servers that have done an amazing job of separating between combat areas and building areas, even in the same universe, which is cool.
     

    Valiant70

    That crazy cyborg
    Joined
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages
    2,189
    Reaction score
    1,167
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    This whole idea is silly. Just start a server and edit the configs to suit your taste.
     
    Joined
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages
    321
    Reaction score
    257
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    Roleplaying groups generally come up with a set of conventions and rules to stick to. It's perfectly feasible to do strict role playing in SM right now. You might need to make your own whitelisted server, have a strong moderator team along with a community that's completely behind the rules etc. but the tools are all there.
     

    Groovrider

    Moderator
    Joined
    Dec 17, 2014
    Messages
    534
    Reaction score
    195
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    I recommend having two different downloads for Starmade. They will both have the same resources. The difference will be in the configuration files.
    1. Roleplay/Builder Edition
    2. Combat Edition

    I say the game absolutely needs to be distributed in at least two forms, because of the disparity between Scifi media, and the reality of needing limited systems. In short, Scifi media shows ships as empty vessels, with many rooms, and very few (but highly effective) systems. On the other hand, combat-optimized building systems emphasizes system building versus rooms and role-play-spaces.

    So in the one game of Starmade you have two diametrically-opposed camps:
    The combat competitors versus the creative builders.

    Take this deckplan as an example of a standard Scifi "floorplan". It's almost nothing but rooms.

    Where did you say you wanted the hyperdrive? In the overhead compartment? In the wing with the fuel?

    The following floorplan is a little more reasonably balanced between walkable floorspace and systems, but still has a huge floorspace-to-systems ratio.


    These kinds of deckplans are great for shows and movies, where the stars of the show are seen discussing their situations during long walks through corridors, doorways, rooms, and elevator cabs.

    This is generally where the roleplay and re-creation builders want to be. Lots of floor space. Lots of detail. Very few "system blocks". Translated to Starmade, that translates to high-output, high-efficiency systems, of which few are needed to make the ship fully functional and fly-able.

    Now compare that with the combat competitor's standard ship layout. They -might- have a core room with a little walking space, but their floor-space is rarely going to exceed 1% of the ship's layout.

    As long as you have all systems with the same effectiveness, the roleplay/recreation ships are going to be positively decimated and outperformed at every turn by competitive ships packed with systems.

    How do you reconcile the two camps in one game? I think you should offer two sets of downloads. One for competitors, and one for creative builders, with wildly different default configurations.

    Everybody gets to feel like they are downloading the "real" game, not a pale imitator, and they get the system default configuration the conforms best to their play-style.

    The real trick, server-side is to have the "type" of game prioritize servers that follow that version's "philosophy". I.e. Combat-downloaders connect to combat-style servers, while role-play-downloaders connect to builder-style servers.

    We can do this manually now, but all too often, the two camps get onto the same server and try to play by the same configuration, but with opposing mindsets. It just doesn't work. the builders feel like they are outgunned (and boy, are they!), while competitors prefer raw performance and don't get a lot of fun out of poking holes in a builder's weaker creation.
    I don't see any examples of RP here. I see a ship with more interior and a ship with less interior. Why is your definition of RP so narrow and cliche? For some reason the playerbase at large decided that they need two camps to split into for whatever reason and insist that this fake war between RP and pvp is a thing.

    RP_____________<>____________HC Combat

    is a sliding scale. Not an absolute. We need to stop pretending otherwise.
     
    Joined
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages
    629
    Reaction score
    243
    So he adds more and more thrusters until it is nimble, and presto! He's got a ship that is half thruster, and doesn't even look like the source material anymore.
    why do people expect starmade to perform like whatever their personal favorite sci fi is? starmade is not "insert sci fi media here," and it can never be, since each scifi media has its own version of things. its starmade.

    a real life f-22 generally has around 1.15:1 thrust to weight, and a good third to half of its main body is devoted to engine components, and 25% of its weight is engines, with another ~50% for fuel. 75% of the avg fighter is its thrust.

    if you want effective systems to fit into nearly no area to fit your particular flavor of overpowered scifi tech, theyll be so potent that theres not even any reason to have to actually place them, may as well just go into a creative "this is what my ship stats should be!" slider bar and plug in what you think yours should be based on its tv show and just let the ships bake their stats in.
     

    Lone_Puppy

    Me, myself and I.
    Joined
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages
    1,274
    Reaction score
    529
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    why do people expect starmade to perform like whatever their personal favorite sci fi is? starmade is not "insert sci fi media here," and it can never be, since each scifi media has its own version of things. its starmade.

    a real life f-22 generally has around 1.15:1 thrust to weight, and a good third to half of its main body is devoted to engine components, and 25% of its weight is engines, with another ~50% for fuel. 75% of the avg fighter is its thrust.

    if you want effective systems to fit into nearly no area to fit your particular flavor of overpowered scifi tech, theyll be so potent that theres not even any reason to have to actually place them, may as well just go into a creative "this is what my ship stats should be!" slider bar and plug in what you think yours should be based on its tv show and just let the ships bake their stats in.
    I often relate to this when thinking about building and often accept the limitations of Starmade.

    I think it was Rabidbat who mentioned the Apollo rocket breifly in his video.
    The rockets are pretty much 90%-95% disposable thrust sections.
    The Defiant in Star Trek is mostly systems with small interrior for crew. Granted, not as small as I've seen built in Starmade replicas, but it's almost relative.
    I must admit, I love Sci-Fi ships and wish they could be built more akin to the show that adapted as they are in Starmade, but the ships are made of 1 metre/square blocks. :whistle: