Buff warhead damage/radius poll [Remastered]

[Nickizzy]

Old version's idea is just copied here:

The purpose of this thread is to have a poll for buffing warhead damage. Just to see what people think. Right now they scratch the paint on an advanced armor block, and have a radius of 5(?).

You can post reasons why and why not to buff them, but stay on the topic of just damage and blast radius.

Warheads are an anticapital/frigate weapon that can bypass shields. They are usually mounted on torpedos and are propelled through push beams/push effect from the ship silo, or on a logic clock activating a push defensive effect on the torpedo. They are ususally dumbfire, but have the theoretical potential to be guided(it's really weird and an exploit right now, everyone chear for warhead torpedo mode!) to the target. Keep in mind that their damge fraction is even worse than missiles because of their blast radius(usually you will get only 50% damage, and manytimes even less), and are stopped quite well with armor.

Someone give me the base stats for warheads as well. Testing and pulishment of different damages and radiuses is appreciated.

Now I will finally attempt to provide an example for each of the poll options. This may be a work in progress thread.
[doublepost=1474506277,1474506154][/doublepost]Yep. It's a work in progress. I can't even figure out the config files anymore. There is this new system where it has the shop's way of organizing all the blocks and I can't find the easy options to change the radius and damage any more. I could use the old launcher I think but I don't know how well that works any more.

 

[Nickizzy]

First Pictures! Even though I can't do different configs doesn't mean I can't test the current ones!

Spoiler: Save on data

This is system blocks:

Two different shots, both have a penetration of 2 blocks and destroyed 7 blocks. This is best case scenario.

This was standard armor.

2 Shots, one in the top left was from a torpedo, I retested because it looked like it bounced with a core and warhead down below. The second one somehow collision destroyed the first 2 blocks before exploding. I checked immediately afterwards, collision damage was not on.

Hull

One shot, 2 deep and 3 wide. It wasn't as different from system as I would have thought.

Adv. Armor

4 different shots, I really tested this one. Sometimes it barely scratched the paint, sometimes it broke one block. \

[Disclaimer] This was done with cubes docked to a ship and not a station, and they did rotate a good amount when testing, so some shots may have hit while it was moving or at a different angle than other shots. I will use station for all further tests.

BTW, first time attempting to use screenshots on anything. Expect better quality as this progresses.

From these shots, we can tell a few things.
1. These Warhead damage is very random in it's effect. although it may be from my testing (See disclaimer), they have varying damages that may result in higher fluctuation with larger values.
2. These Warheads are very weak as anything but a rapidfire(like 4 per second) drill weapon on a stationary target. In a best case scenario they destroyed just 7 blocks? As a weapon that might be used against ships with a minimum of thousands of blocks, this is unacceptable.

 

[sayerulz]

10 meters sounds OK to me. I don't have a very good frame of reference for damage, so no comment on that.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Yep. It's a work in progress. I can't even figure out the config files anymore. There is this new system where it has the shop's way of organizing all the blocks and I can't find the easy options to change the radius and damage any more. I could use the old launcher I think but I don't know how well that works any more.

Here are the steps to tweak the explosive blocks in windows:
- Find "blockBehaviorConfig.xml" in StarMade\data\config\
- Make a copy of the file as a backup with a slightly different name, (just in case...attachFull32347)
- Using a text editor (I use word pad), open "blockBehaviorConfig.xml"
- On your keyboard, hold your control key and hit "F"; a "find" dialogue box will open.
- Type the word "explosive". The first entry listed will be the warheads
- Modify the damage and blast radius as you see fit.
- Save the file.
- Open StarMade and blow crap up...

As per my last thread on this, I'm still testing damage/radius ranges to find a level that is agreeable to everyone; as people seem to be terrified of these things. Until then, get your 'fire extinguisher' ready.

 

[alterintel]

currently if you can get a warhead to clip through a target before it explodes, you can do considerably more damage. However, I totally agree, with the OP, this needs to be buffed so that Warheads can be used in "normal" circumstances. I'm not sure about the number value of the damage that would be required. But I would like to see a warhead be capable of putting at lease a 3 radius whole in advanced armor.

In the mean time, maybe some of you can get some inspiration from this:

 

[Az14el]

Don't buff the radius imo, this is just making warheads work like missiles that penetrate shields. Which is broke, it is, its broken!

Nerf the radius, and give them enough damage to vaporise all unarmored blocks within their radius (18k/3r will destroy a standard armor layer & kill its small semi-sphere in 25hp blocks beyond that pretty well, but be severely hampered by adv armor and/or several layers of shield blocks.)

Swarm torps don't need a significant buff, if anything it would overpower them very quickly
And less spammable/less stackable designs are (in my ever so humble opinion) simply hampered by their own size/cost, Not their damage values.

Spoiler: DEFAULT Warhead damage, actually

This ship is an old design too, otherwise there'd be aux going off too...
More radius on this aint justice...

 

[Nickizzy]

Here are the steps to tweak the explosive blocks in windows:
- Find "blockBehaviorConfig.xml" in StarMade\data\config\
- Make a copy of the file as a backup with a slightly different name, (just in case...attachFull32347)
- Using a text editor (I use word pad), open "blockBehaviorConfig.xml"
- On your keyboard, hold your control key and hit "F"; a "find" dialogue box will open.
- Type the word "explosive". The first entry listed will be the warheads
- Modify the damage and blast radius as you see fit.
- Save the file.
- Open StarMade and blow crap up...

As per my last thread on this, I'm still testing damage/radius ranges to find a level that is agreeable to everyone; as people seem to be terrified of these things. Until then, get your 'fire extinguisher' ready.

Thanks. I actually, while messing around trying to get my screenshots, figured out that you might be able to reach it easier(or in a less techy-seemy way)by going through the steam, properties, local files, browse files, and I saw like the server.config and stuff. I was to busy to test it, but yea.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Silly idea time... How about a 3-5 meter radius, a small damage buff (20,000) but the weapon completely ignores all armor and shields; applying all damage directly to the affected blocks' HP? Meanwhile, we get rid of this clipping exploit nonsense.

It would be a precision strike weapon to attack a weak point (door breacher, C4 charge, etc.) or something to wear down larger targets over time with sustained fire (siege launcher). Theoretically speaking, a weapon with the above stats would leave a hole about 5-11 meters wide by 3-6 meters deep (give or take) depending on the HP of the blocks that are hit (advanced armor vs a shield block). As with all existing explosives, roughly half the damage is still lost to open space, when impacting a flat surface.

The damaged areas would be relatively small preventing alpha kills on small craft (if you can even hit them) and allowing larger craft to armor tank until the opponent runs out of torpedoes. Meanwhile, the weapons are still single-use-only.

 

[TBterra]

Silly idea time... How about a 3-5 meter radius, a small damage buff (20,000) but the weapon completely ignores all armor and shields; applying all damage directly to the affected blocks' HP? Meanwhile, we get rid of this clipping exploit nonsense.

This would actually be rather effective, especially with aux reactors, it fixes them by making them a precision weapon, rather than a mini-nuke. radius could possibly be bumped up to 7 if and only if AI targeting priority was increased for ships with warheads on.

 

[Panpiper]

I dare say any changes to torpedoes absolutely must 'follow' improvements to Bobby AI targeting. There are already ways to use torpedoes effectively and there are no ways as of yet for a ship's turrets to be tasked specifically to shooting them down. At the very least things like PD (Bobby AI 'missile' setting) needs to have a priority list starting with missiles and then defaulting to smallest nearby craft. However having a setting for 'torpedoes' rather than just missiles, ships and astronauts is sorely needed now, let alone prior to buffing warheads. Such a setting would prioritize nearest ships carrying warheads and then default to ships if no such warheads are in range.

 

[Scypio]

Take a few low range defence turrets and that's it (not PD). You got your anti warheads turrets.

 

[Panpiper]

Take a few low range defence turrets and that's it (not PD). You got your anti warheads turrets.

Hmm... You mean like a beam/missile/pierce beam/cannon/pierce turret set to anti-ship? (I wonder how strong they would need to be?) I currently have eight cannon/cannon/overdrive turrets (self powered) strong enough to crack advanced armor blocks with every shot on a fresh target. I guess that might be overkill and too far ranged for torpedoes. (Great against fighter drones though I expect.)

 

[Scypio]

I would look more at beam/cannon weapons than missiles ones. Not sure if a effect is needed as the first blocs needs to be warheads to explose. Piercing can be tricky if the ennemy torpedo got some shields.

 

[Panpiper]

I would look more at beam/cannon weapons than missiles ones. Not sure if a effect is needed as the first blocs needs to be warheads to explose. Piercing can be tricky if the ennemy torpedo got some shields.

D'oh! I have no idea why I wrote 'missile' in there, as I very definitely meant cannon.

I've not spent any time building torpedoes, but would it not be possible to use a trigger block on the very nose of a torpedo to open a blast door that reveals the warhead upon contact? This would permit the blast door to absorb defensive fire without the warhead being hit. It was my assumption that something like this would work. If I used a beam/cannon/pierce effect, I would either use a partial pierce effect so it could still damage shields, or pair it in the turret with a 100% beam/cannon/ion effect big enough to knock out 220 shield with one hit.

 

[Scypio]

D'oh! I have no idea why I wrote 'missile' in there, as I very definitely meant cannon.

This happen sometimes. :p

Well, a torpedo using blast doors to protect warheads and some aera triggers to take them off for the final blow is tempting but it should use a few layers of blast doors to be useful against turrets. Remember that every turrets will shoot down the torpedo until it overheat, one block won't be useful at all against this kind of turrets. As you said, you got some cannon/cannon/overdrive turrets that blow up advanced blocks in one shot. Replace the first cannon computer with beam and there you go. You got your anti torpedo turret.
And to counter that well... Just a tanky decoy until the AI become smarter.

 

[Panpiper]

Hmm... Again I may be guilty of making assumptions. I assumed that any damage to a warhead would explode the warhead, and necessarily cook off any other warhead blocks in a chain reaction. If true, one would need to do just a shred of damage to a single warhead block to neutralize the whole torpedo. Hence the idea of a piercing effect, as one wouldn't need to destroy the blast door, merely piece it enough to scratch the warhead behind it. Your multiple layers of blast door would neatly circumvent any such defense.

Of course also, if the turret cannot destroy the torpedo completely, it will inevitably continue to fire at the now neutralized torpedo while other live torpedoes continue unopposed, so having big bad turrets that can hard kill the things rapidly is likely the smart way to go.

It looks like I may be re-engineering those existing defensive turrets. I'll have to install some other defensive measures versus cannon/cannon drones. Maybe 10/1 ratio missile/beam turrets firing 8 or 16 small (and energy cheap) ion warheads for PD decoys and a couple of bigger killers.

My main turrets (among other things) fire full ratio missile/beams for long range engagements.

 

[Nickizzy]

D'oh! I have no idea why I wrote 'missile' in there, as I very definitely meant cannon.

I've not spent any time building torpedoes, but would it not be possible to use a trigger block on the very nose of a torpedo to open a blast door that reveals the warhead upon contact? This would permit the blast door to absorb defensive fire without the warhead being hit. It was my assumption that something like this would work. If I used a beam/cannon/pierce effect, I would either use a partial pierce effect so it could still damage shields, or pair it in the turret with a 100% beam/cannon/ion effect big enough to knock out 220 shield with one hit.

I think it works, it's just that when you make torpedos, you are basically making Suicide drones. It all depends on how you want to use them. If you have a semiauto docking torpedo bay(I've seen them), then you want the cheapest money can buy.

 

[MacThule]

I was just doing some independent testing myself - I had no idea warheads had been so evilly nerfed.

Doesn't current warhead performance basically invalidate the whole complaint about 'trolls' using warheads to destroy HBs if they weren't invulnerable?

It'd take hours if you had advanced armor...

 

[-Moose-]

It took me less than an hour to breach through two doors on a 35k ship, destroy the faction block and scoot off with it. All with warheads. Fastest option? Nay, safest option? Yes.

If you buff single warheads that just makes my *ahem salvage jobs easier.

I would suggest a single warhead should should be paint scratching, however they should receive an exponential adjacency bonus similar to aux reactor explosions. That way in a large groups they can still be used as ordinance.

 

[AtraUnam]

Warheads in their current state are strong enough to be troll tools but too weak for actual combat. It takes around 250 independantly targeting warhead torps to kill a stationary 2k mass fighter.