Brainstorm This: Crew Chambers (no crew)

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    starmade-screenshot-0169.png
    (LEFT: a "Logistics Chamber" with interior space tacked on for looks but awkwardly divorced from function. CENTER: same chamber, gutted to a minimum for bounding a space equal to the original blocks. RIGHT: cutaway view of proposed new "chamber" format composed of defined interior space + calculated decor like computers & circuits so that defined, properly-equipped interior space itself causes function.)


    Background:

    The new power cores work very well as reactors, I find I don't miss reactor lines as much as I thought I would, but they've collapsed the build meta. The stabilizer elements though perform very poorly at controlling build metas, and that is their only real purpose. Since stabilizers fail their purpose almost completely, they could probably be disposed of entirely without losing anything of value, as mentioned by several other testers.

    Chambers on the other hand have had many important sub-systems subsumed into them. It's worth noting that the reactor chamber elements are not chambers at all, they are bricks that buff systems via no clear, describable dynamic. Chambers are not even actually part of power generation, despite every effort to make them so. They are power consumers only. Just like engines. They are an interrelated network of secondary, supplemental systems (a more coherent - arguably oversimplified - version of what they replaced in terms of effects systems, etc). No one is sure what realistic mechanic they represent though. Remember the dust-up over their name after the initial proposal? They're literally just a placeholder for something unspecified, which is why any name would have been as good as any other. And they aren't reactor chambers - they don't need to be adjacent to or part of the reactor at all. They can be anywhere and they have no impact on power generation, only consumption.

    -They could exert a lot of influence on build metas if they were actually chambers. As in spaces. Rooms. Either fully enclosing empty space, or non-colloidal blocks fully enclosed by hull/armor.

    -They could exert a lot more influence on build metas if they also needed to be adjacent to a certain number of block faces of the system they affect (ie thrusters, factories).

    -They could exert a lot more influence on build metas if they also needed to be tied into the reactor by conduits or hallways. And maybe to each other, depending on their role.

    -They could exert a massive influence on build metas if all three of the above were true and they needed to enclose, as chambers, a substantial capacity of 'empty space' in order to function optimally.

    -Even more if, additional to that empty space, they needed to contain a certain amount of motherboards. And circuits. And lights. And chairs. As if they were meant to be occupied. As if instead of "mystery chambers" they were a functional and decorative, meaningful part of the ship meant to be occupied by crew. Something that forced a ship to be tied together instead of a collection of islands.

    Regardless of whether NPC crew exists, empowering that space itself would both empower interior building & decor, and evaporate horribly over-simplified, overly geometric meta builds very efficiently. It would bring back complexity in design. It would be impossible to bypass without eating massive losses in performance. This is completely unrelated to any suggestion of implementing NPC Crew in any form.

    starmade-screenshot-0170.png starmade-screenshot-0171.png
    (This simple demo platform shows how, in this suggestion, a Power Chamber and adjacent Mobility Chamber abut to create a shared engineering deck / propulsion lab. They include a portion of the systems they directly affect, for optimal effect, which encourages engine rooms be at least near main engines, reactor rooms would be easiest to place near or around reactors and can create a good opportunity for an additional layer or two of internal hull or armor around your ship vitals)


    Suggestion: Crew Chambers

    To get the most efficiency out of your reactor, you may choose to surround it (at least a certain minimum %) with a fully enclosed & lit engineering (power) chamber including motherboards and circuits and decorative computers.

    To further buff performance, your main engineering chamber can be linked by a toon-passable, lit hallway to an enclosed, lit command/bridge (recon/stealth/scan?) chamber that incorporates the ship core, motherboards, circuits, and computers (unwanted decor could always be covered by hull panels or grills within the chamber, of course).

    For improved buffs, both can be linked by at least one passable hallway to another chamber designated as 'crew quarters.' Maybe the crew quarters has some medical blocks and other decor besides lights to get more % improvement.

    Now, to get the most out of your thrusters, you will also need a fully enclosed & decorated mobility chamber that incorporates sufficient numbers of thruster elements, sufficient open space, and has a passage access that connects it to main engineering, command (bridge), and crew quarters.

    Want stronger shields? Wrap your shield banks in a defense chamber, decorate it, connect it to the network.

    Want better weapon performance? Add a weapon crew chamber to your network, wrap it around your super-weapon. Y'know... instead of "another reactor." Who wants a ship with 3 reactors and no crew space?

    Of course if your chamber is breached in combat, you'll lose your bonuses, so some compartmentalization or redundancy could help, but mostly you'll want to armor it heavily because even a small hole is going to start eroding your ship's performance. Since chambers would be most effective if enclosed and interconnected, you'd want logic doors on your hallways; in case of breach they would seal and contain the loss of bonuses to the one system damaged or to a hallway (hopefully you have a backup access route).

    If this were the way to optimize the benefits conveyed by chambers, then island ships, dumbell ships, and other meta-ambitious pseudo-ships with no interior would quickly become inferior to well-engineered and designed ships with functional crew interior spaces and compartment/module networks, which would then exist not for "RP" or "decoration" but for cause.

    Ships still not bulking up enough? Increase chamber space requirements. Add requirements that chambers have of certain sizes have 'insulating' layers around them. There is much that can be done. Using the full spread of tools presently available.

    It could be entirely ignored by lazy builders, but they'd be taking massive performance losses for doing so.

    starmade-screenshot-0172.png starmade-screenshot-0173.png
    (Same demo platform, now sporting some interior fill; hull, circuits, computers, lights, some glowing ice stuff to make the reactor... glow... becauseradiation. Some people design awesome interiors, but even the worst decorator can slap down some strips of components and glowing stuff in simple patterns as an optimization placeholder until they want a style - either way, you get benefits from having the decor.)

    Taking a step back, it seems a lot of hassle if it were only to regulate build metas, but it doesn't do just that. It makes the chambers real, gives a reason why they do what they do. It can be used to regulate many aspects of combat balance. It requires thoughtful, careful planning to achieve full efficiency by integrating system architecture with a meaningful network of crew interior. I think it would be a lot of fun and provide a lot of tools for balancing gameplay.

    But such robust results simply cannot be accomplished by looking only at the one-dimensional relationship between reactors and stabilizers. Balance and meta will not be improved by going backwards and re-building core systems again and again because any single given system cannot perfect an entire, complex game by virtue of its own awesomeness. The dynamics will only change; some problems are solved, new ones arise. Only layers of secondary mechanics (crew quarters, fuel, meaningful FP, etc) and interrelated requirements (overlapping, interdependent networks) can stitch up the inevitable gaps in the game.



    Thoughts?

     
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    So what your getting at is having the "chamber" concept being used for more than just the reactor?

    • E.g You create a "Chamber" and connect it via conduits to a group of thrusters.
    • That "Chamber" now has an effect on that group of thrusters.
    • With further development, the "Chamber" could be affected by crew within it's bounding box.
    • With even further development the "Chamber" could be affected by 'work stations' and other objects inside it's bounding box.
    • (Each object/crew only being able to affect one "chamber" at a time however).

    Edit: Just saw you said no crew. Could just be automated workstations/machinery then.
    Crew could always be included in the system at a latter date.
    Please read my post bellow for further clarification!
     
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    That looks like a fair tl;dr summary!

    Not sure I entirely understand your last bullet point, but really this could be implemented in a variety of ways that would all result in massive gameplay improvements with minimum effort.

    EDIT: Exactly, Dire Venom - My realization is that the spaces themselves can sort a lot out, without crew. Coding actual NPC crew will be more difficult than I think many are willing to admit. It might take a year or more to be functional, but we want ships to have meaningful interior crew space anyway for decor & RP and to discourage doom-bricking, right? Even unpopulated we build crew spaces sometimes for fun. We have tons of decorative blocks for it, might as well make use of it all. And yeah... then it's all already there in the event that eventually actual NPC crew are implemented, their skills and XP could expand buff trees further, diversify enhancements, etc. If they ever happen. If not, it's still a good networked of balance mechanisms that solves some of the biggest issues as far as the old "PvP -v- RP" dilemma, doom-bricks, and many other longstanding complaints. There's no need to make crew spaces contingent on crew. It may even be putting the cart before the horse from a gameplay perspective.
     
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    That looks like a fair tl;dr summary!

    Not sure I entirely understand your last bullet point, but really this could be implemented in a variety of ways that would all result in massive gameplay improvements with minimum effort.
    By that I was refering to building chambers within chambers within chambers to get crew to "count" for multiple chambers. E.g just trying to prevent crew being exploited unfairly in the workforce!
    (Thats presuming crew have to be within the chambers dimensions for it to work). It could certaitnly work other ways too!

    But holy **** I think your on to something.
    Other "chambers" could be implimented as well.
    E.g
    You create the chambers bounding box using "chamber blocks"
    The size of the bounding box determines the Total, maximum output of that "chamber".
    You can add crew and workstations to add "skills" to that chamber.
    E.g a crew member might contribute 5 "ship opps" skill to a chamber.
    E.g a worstation might contribute 5 "electronics" and 2 "gunnery" to that chamber.
    Say this is a small chamber with the 2 above items, and it's size gives it a skill cap of 8.
    Therefore the total chamber skill output to the system would be 5 "ship opps" and 3 "electronics"
    The different skills could have different impacts on the system/group the chamber is attachted too.
    Large chambers could have singnificantly higher skill caps and thus be preferable to a lot of smaller "chambers".

    Just some further ideas, "chambers" not conected so a system could also provide passive bonuses to the ship based on their "skill" output.
    E.g, say you have a lot of "Ship Opps" skill on your ship, that could increase the ammount of damage a system can take before it goes "offline".
    (This is assuming that induvidual systems will go offline if more than (x%) of them is destroyed. To reset what counts as a system/group a restart would be required).


    System blocks would not provide any benifit inside "chambers" as well so that players wouldn't just create a chamber box then fill it full of systems.

    I think this system would allow for dedicated "rooms" to matter for ships.
    =>
    For a PvP player who doesn't care about interior, you can just fill it full of automated workstations and keep it as a blank box that takes 30 seconds to create.
    =>
    For a RP Player, they could decorate the chamber to their hearts desire, knowing that their "roleplaying" room is actualy contributing to the ship! They might spend 20 minutes designing their "chamber" room.

    ______________________________________________________________

    As far as ship building goes, I see this as a low-mass and low-resource way for a player to increase the potiential of their systems, where as filling the whole ship full of systems is always going to be more effective, however is high-mass and resource intensive.
    A well funded ship builder could always stuff their ship full of systems, and I don't see Schema really changing that (at least all their attempts have not been succesful)>
    But at the very least giving players who don't want to fill everything with system blocks other options would be a good alternative.

    Or at least someway to get some benifit out of "rooms" in your ship.

    [doublepost=1513388604,1513387131][/doublepost]Just some ship "skills" ideas:

    Ship Ops Skills
    • 2.1Pilot
    • 2.2Ship Ops
    • 2.3Gunnery
    • 2.4Repair
    • 2.5Electronics
    • 2.6Navigation
     
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    Those are along the lines I was thinking , but honestly... I'd almost prefer to skip discussing any potential for actual crew in this suggestion, or at least keep it to a minimum, and focus on the crew space itself, if that's cool!:) People have so many wish-list ideas in the crew department I'm afraid even discussing it will bury the core chamber/compartment suggestion here under a flood of "crew members could" suggestions. Then that puts us behind a mountain of contingency upon un-coded NPCs, new AI systems, etc. Lots and lots of code before that could happen. A year, bare minimum. Too much, too long to wait.

    Crew spaces... I think those could happen quickly, using mostly things already in the game, just looking at chambers differently. This could happen in a very reasonable time frame, and might help patch some of the gameplay problems that need addressing quickly. And it sets fantastic groundwork for crew at a later date, but we get benefit from "ghost crew" now.

    EDIT: Actually, I see you're suggesting allowing automated workstations to sub in for manned workstations. Good plan. Better than "ghost crew" even. Squeezing accessible workstations in could totally function optimize crew spaces and goes even further towards setting a stage for eventual crew.
     
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    Those are along the lines I was thinking , but honestly... I'd almost prefer to skip discussing any potential for actual crew in this suggestion, or at least keep it to a minimum, and focus on the crew space itself, if that's cool!:) People have so many wish-list ideas in the crew department I'm afraid even discussing it will bury the core chamber/compartment suggestion here under a flood of "crew members could" suggestions. Then that puts us behind a mountain of contingency upon un-coded NPCs, new AI systems, etc. Lots and lots of code before that could happen. A year, bare minimum. Too much, too long to wait.

    Crew spaces... I think those could happen quickly, using mostly things already in the game, just looking at chambers differently. This could happen in a very reasonable time frame, and might help patch some of the gameplay problems that need addressing quickly. And it sets fantastic groundwork for crew at a later date, but we get benefit from "ghost crew" now.

    EDIT: Actually, I see you're suggesting allowing automated workstations to sub in for manned workstations. Good plan. Better than "ghost crew" even. Squeezing accessible workstations in could totally function optimize crew spaces and goes even further towards setting a stage for eventual crew.
    Quite True! I also see crew as a long term potiential development of the system you have suggested (start out with automated workstations and the such, and evenatualy crew might fit into it as well).
    Tbh if I want crew on my ship I just create blocky models and stick them on rails going around my ship :P (Looks pretty stupid though).

    When I get some time I'll try and draw up some concept art as well, some people find it a lot easier to understand things visually.
    I think this holds a lot of promise and would be a big step forward for SM!
     
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    Hmm, so let's say you have "workstations".

    Each system on the ship could have one or more workstations depending on it's size. Workstations must have a certain radius around them free of system blocks, dependant on the size of the system they support and with a maximum of around 3 blocks. Instead of workstations with a radius of more than 3 blocks system demands a second workstation.

    Alternatively system must have a certain total volume dedicated to the "chamber" (by creating a bounding box as Dire Venom describes) and X number of workstations in it.

    For very small systems, say under 1000 system blocks total on a ship, you only need a workstation and no chamber, for full effect. On the other hand titans may have dozens workstations and a lot of space around them.
     

    jayman38

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    This got me thinking of 0%-draw crew chambers, especially with a look back at the Star Control 2 (now available as "The Ur Quan Masters") crew system. Instead of providing effects, and instead of drawing from the reactor system, they provide the ship with a relatively meaningless array of "crew" stats and/or other RP fun. These chambers would need to be super light, small, and not draw from the reactor system, so that they don't interfere with ship systems, and don't limit how many conventional chambers (FTL distance, overdrive boost, scanner effect, etc.) you can have.
    1. Barracks Chamber - Basic Crew Chamber provides the ship with a "crew capacity". (E.g. For example, each chamber might add 50 to the crew capacity of a ship.) Until crew are available, it's locked up tight.
    2. Training Chamber - Provides the crew with some sort of "maintenance points" (MP). As long as the crew has MP, if they ever give a buff to the ship, the percentage of the buff could relate to how many MP is required vs. how many are available. Until crew are introduced, it's just a locked workout gym.
    3. Entertainment Chamber - Provides the crew with some sort of "morale points" (FQP). Similar to maintenance points, this could be used to adjust how much buff crew can provide in the future. Until crew are introduced, it's just a locked movie theater.
    4. Medical Chamber - Provides the crew with their own health points, and maybe rarely "births" a new crewmember. Could provide a small amount of both MP and FQP, in addition to health, uh, or something. Until crew are introduced, it's just a locked hospital wing.
    5. Mess Hall Chamber - Provides similar function to the Entertainment Chamber. Maybe with added health or something. Until crew are introduced, it's just a locked cafeteria.
    The thing with crew chambers, is it would be real easy to send crew "toons" walking straight from one chamber to another, so you would have an easy, ready-made nav point system (chamber-to-chamber) for sending crew members around the ship to create a more "living" environment. That is, if crew is ever introduced.... If crew never comes about, at least the ship has these little RP additions that people build on their own anyway.
     
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    I've been tinkering a bit. I wonder if crew compartment bounding could be set up similarly to shipyards:

    starmade-screenshot-0169.png
    (model at left shows our current, bloated divorce of components and interior space. cutaway model at right demonstrates my suggestion of marrying interior space with component functionality by defining the space itself - and everything in it - as an integral part of the component. center model just clarifies the shape of component blocks used to bound the interior space shown in cutaway at right)

    starmade-screenshot-0168.png
    (this is the same station interior room from inside - you can't even tell the compartment blocks are there because they're entirely embedded in a layered hull section, but this entire small factory compartment has literally become a "Logistics Chamber")

    I like the "shipyard-style" bounding so far for a few important reasons:
    • It replicates existing dynamics and code to some extent; where a block outline reads and is aware of the status of other blocks within its bounds, but also characters and other entities are free to pass through the compartment. This makes it not only a "known, viable approach" but also much quicker and easier to implement, and more intuitive for builders than an entirely new approach.
    • It wastes the least interior space and mass on mystery blocks (chambers, stabilizers, etc - what are these 'things' really?), leaving more mass and volume available for decor, which ideally will contribute to each chamber's degree of optimization.
    • We'd only need to outline a compartment with the blocks, and we know from shipyard capabilities that it could track everything going on inside; number of computers, number of circuits or other elements, number of elements of whichever system it affects, and later even PC & NPC occupants.
    • It could probably even output data on this to a GUI tracker as well as to Logic blocks (which can then be integrated into a security monitoring & response network on sprawling vessels and stations).
    Tracking the ratio of bound space to bounding blocks used could also be useful for setting optimization standards, so that a certain amount of resources could still be required to achieve optimal effects.

    Depending on the chamber/compartment type, ratios of bound space to blocks of affected system would probably be relevant to optimization.

    I'm not sure if this would mean we would have to outline/bind the hallways and everything else to ensure sealed interiors (of if sealed interiors would be even remotely feasible as part of an initial testing of something like this). I'm also unsure of and concerned about the demands it would place on the engine to have every ship bigger than a heavy 'vette essentially be a ship full of shipyards flying around. This might be a deal-breaker right off, though I'm sure fat could be trimmed and it might be workable; only those working on the actual code will know for sure.
     

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    This got me thinking of 0%-draw crew chambers, especially with a look back at the Star Control 2 (now available as "The Ur Quan Masters") crew system. Instead of providing effects, and instead of drawing from the reactor system, they provide the ship with a relatively meaningless array of "crew" stats and/or other RP fun. These chambers would need to be super light, small, and not draw from the reactor system, so that they don't interfere with ship systems, and don't limit how many conventional chambers (FTL distance, overdrive boost, scanner effect, etc.) you can have.
    Absolutely! This would be a lot of fun and enrich the game. Obviously second to converting the conventional chambers into crew compartments, but a brilliant idea; enough to create many hours of geekery in-game. Thanks for that!(y)

    The thing with crew chambers, is it would be real easy to send crew "toons" walking straight from one chamber to another, so you would have an easy, ready-made nav point system (chamber-to-chamber) for sending crew members around the ship to create a more "living" environment. That is, if crew is ever introduced.... If crew never comes about, at least the ship has these little RP additions that people build on their own anyway.
    Right, right!
    I realized this right after I first started considering marrying interior space to system functions for more immediately practical purposes, but obviously taking this approach does a lot for crew prospects. It's icing on the cake of balancing systems and fixing the build meta, IMO, but it's super advantageous for one of the most anticipated future features, and realizing that pretty much set my heart on at least getting this idea out to the community. I've had trouble making it succinct.

    Anyway; yeah it makes interior more than an appendix slapped on top of a game that's already functionally self-contained, instead making interior decor an inherent part of what makes ships great (or terrible).

    It relieves the dev team of massive amounts of up-front coding necessity to get NPC toons to behave in a procedural universe and instead they can code for behavior within a network of enclosed spaces (and if you space some crew members, Sims style, they'll probably just freak out a bit and drift in space and be lost). Pathing would become extremely easy. Also, since the compartments could report intruders to logic, you could eventually set up a space 'rine barracks compartment rigged to automatically send teams to areas that are compromised.

    It also occurs to me (as a bit of a pessimist and a minimalist) that, depending on difficulty of coding NPC crew as coherent and persistent individuals, it also permits an "easy out" option to the devs whereby crew compartments could just spawn little crew guys, at intervals (like creeps) who randomly fade into and out of existence just looking busy (and occasionally getting blown up). So your main engineering just always has 4-6 (or 2 or 17 or whatever number depending on size/power) guys tinkering with random computers and walking around pretending to talk to each other; an intruder comes through and blasts them all, and over time, one by one they eventually just re-populate as expressions of an abstract notion of crew rather than as crew themselves. If making them persistent and individually manageable is too much, this will still get some of the fun of crew in there and these functional crew compartments would make great spawning pools for disposable crew-creeps, but obviously proper crew would be way more fun, funny and compelling (and even more fun to force out of the airlocks when they fail you for the last time:giggle:).
     
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    Sachys

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    with a look back at the Star Control 2 (now available as "The Ur Quan Masters") crew system.
    Somewhat Offtopic:
    Ur Quan Masters is in fact a fan produced rendition of Star Control 2 using code and assets made available by Toys For Bob (mostly from the 3DO version if i recall correctly), as such, the mechanics are somewhat tweaked / subtly different from the base Star Control 2 experience (which was available for sale on both Steam and GOG until just the other week along with Sc 1 and 3 - since pulled due to a trademark issue between Stardock and TFB - both of whom are producing new "Star Control" games). I just want to make that clear so if anybody downloads it and doesnt equate to your statement, theres room for error.
    [I presume you're a fan and are unaware of that, which is my second reason for posting :)].

    Edit: not trying to devalue your point (to be 100% clear)

    * * * * *

    I'd comment on the OP in detail, but... all i really need to say is its a better idea than what Schine has done already, and would presumably need less messing around from the prior system than "power 2.0" has thus far required.
     
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    I'd comment on the OP in detail, but... all i really need to say is its a better idea than what Schine has done already, and would presumably need less messing around from the prior system than "power 2.0" has thus far required.
    Thanks for saying so. It really appeals to me; it seems like a simpler approach to balancing interior space and systems that simultaneously rules out things like island ships as an effective build, completely ends the war between PvP & RP, and relies entirely on dynamics already proven within the game. Pretty simple, but I think we've become so locked into a certain way of looking at systems as separate from - even opposed to - interior space that solutions like this are becoming hard to see.
     
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    Hybrids would be nice, but good point. There would still be tribal camps of each.

    Ok. How about, it would naturally balance the two styles a bit?

    Any major holes to shoot in the idea, other than that Schine may not have any interest?
     

    Sachys

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    Schine may not have any interest?
    That would be foolish on their part - what they've done so far is not well liked enough to dismiss other options.

    On the other hand, it seems they have been walking blindly since the new power thing was announced and gone down a winding path to a completely different outcome, so perhaps less a lack of interest, and more a lack of clear vision and sense?

    Edit: and the base concept you've laid out seems solid enough - no immediate concerns
     
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    Valiant70

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    View attachment 46896
    (LEFT: a "Logistics Chamber" with interior space tacked on for looks but awkwardly divorced from function. CENTER: same chamber, gutted to a minimum for bounding a space equal to the original blocks. RIGHT: cutaway view of proposed new "chamber" format composed of defined interior space + calculated decor like computers & circuits so that defined, properly-equipped interior space itself causes function.)


    Background:

    The new power cores work very well as reactors, I find I don't miss reactor lines as much as I thought I would, but they've collapsed the build meta. The stabilizer elements though perform very poorly at controlling build metas, and that is their only real purpose. Since stabilizers fail their purpose almost completely, they could probably be disposed of entirely without losing anything of value, as mentioned by several other testers.

    Chambers on the other hand have had many important sub-systems subsumed into them. It's worth noting that the reactor chamber elements are not chambers at all, they are bricks that buff systems via no clear, describable dynamic. Chambers are not even actually part of power generation, despite every effort to make them so. They are power consumers only. Just like engines. They are an interrelated network of secondary, supplemental systems (a more coherent - arguably oversimplified - version of what they replaced in terms of effects systems, etc). No one is sure what realistic mechanic they represent though. Remember the dust-up over their name after the initial proposal? They're literally just a placeholder for something unspecified, which is why any name would have been as good as any other. And they aren't reactor chambers - they don't need to be adjacent to or part of the reactor at all. They can be anywhere and they have no impact on power generation, only consumption.

    -They could exert a lot of influence on build metas if they were actually chambers. As in spaces. Rooms. Either fully enclosing empty space, or non-colloidal blocks fully enclosed by hull/armor.

    -They could exert a lot more influence on build metas if they also needed to be adjacent to a certain number of block faces of the system they affect (ie thrusters, factories).

    -They could exert a lot more influence on build metas if they also needed to be tied into the reactor by conduits or hallways. And maybe to each other, depending on their role.

    -They could exert a massive influence on build metas if all three of the above were true and they needed to enclose, as chambers, a substantial capacity of 'empty space' in order to function optimally.

    -Even more if, additional to that empty space, they needed to contain a certain amount of motherboards. And circuits. And lights. And chairs. As if they were meant to be occupied. As if instead of "mystery chambers" they were a functional and decorative, meaningful part of the ship meant to be occupied by crew. Something that forced a ship to be tied together instead of a collection of islands.

    Regardless of whether NPC crew exists, empowering that space itself would both empower interior building & decor, and evaporate horribly over-simplified, overly geometric meta builds very efficiently. It would bring back complexity in design. It would be impossible to bypass without eating massive losses in performance. This is completely unrelated to any suggestion of implementing NPC Crew in any form.



    Suggestion: Crew Chambers

    To get the most efficiency out of your reactor, you may choose to surround it (at least a certain minimum %) with a fully enclosed & lit engineering (power) chamber including motherboards and circuits and decorative computers.

    To further buff performance, your main engineering chamber can be linked by a toon-passable, lit hallway to an enclosed, lit command/bridge (recon/stealth/scan?) chamber that incorporates the ship core, motherboards, circuits, and computers (unwanted decor could always be covered by hull panels or grills within the chamber, of course).

    For improved buffs, both can be linked by at least one passable hallway to another chamber designated as 'crew quarters.' Maybe the crew quarters has some medical blocks and other decor besides lights to get more % improvement.

    Now, to get the most out of your thrusters, you will also need a fully enclosed & decorated mobility chamber that incorporates sufficient numbers of thruster elements, sufficient open space, and has a passage access that connects it to main engineering, command (bridge), and crew quarters.

    Want stronger shields? Wrap your shield banks in a defense chamber, decorate it, connect it to the network.

    Want better weapon performance? Add a weapon crew chamber to your network, wrap it around your super-weapon. Y'know... instead of "another reactor." Who wants a ship with 3 reactors and no crew space?

    Of course if your chamber is breached in combat, you'll lose your bonuses, so some compartmentalization or redundancy could help, but mostly you'll want to armor it heavily because even a small hole is going to start eroding your ship's performance. Since chambers would be most effective if enclosed and interconnected, you'd want logic doors on your hallways; in case of breach they would seal and contain the loss of bonuses to the one system damaged or to a hallway (hopefully you have a backup access route).

    If this were the way to optimize the benefits conveyed by chambers, then island ships, dumbell ships, and other meta-ambitious pseudo-ships with no interior would quickly become inferior to well-engineered and designed ships with functional crew interior spaces and compartment/module networks, which would then exist not for "RP" or "decoration" but for cause.

    Ships still not bulking up enough? Increase chamber space requirements. Add requirements that chambers have of certain sizes have 'insulating' layers around them. There is much that can be done. Using the full spread of tools presently available.

    It could be entirely ignored by lazy builders, but they'd be taking massive performance losses for doing so.



    Taking a step back, it seems a lot of hassle if it were only to regulate build metas, but it doesn't do just that. It makes the chambers real, gives a reason why they do what they do. It can be used to regulate many aspects of combat balance. It requires thoughtful, careful planning to achieve full efficiency by integrating system architecture with a meaningful network of crew interior. I think it would be a lot of fun and provide a lot of tools for balancing gameplay.

    But such robust results simply cannot be accomplished by looking only at the one-dimensional relationship between reactors and stabilizers. Balance and meta will not be improved by going backwards and re-building core systems again and again because any single given system cannot perfect an entire, complex game by virtue of its own awesomeness. The dynamics will only change; some problems are solved, new ones arise. Only layers of secondary mechanics (crew quarters, fuel, meaningful FP, etc) and interrelated requirements (overlapping, interdependent networks) can stitch up the inevitable gaps in the game.



    Thoughts?
    This implements the core functionalities and consequences of a crew system, and leaves room for adding crew with little modification to ships. To add crew:
    • Reduce the base bonus of crew chambers
    • Add a bonus for crew working at workstations within the rooms.
    • Add living space requirements. Reducing the required size of crew chambers would reduce the need for ship modifications.
    [doublepost=1513982048,1513981285][/doublepost]I see two problems here:
    • How do you (fairly) determine damage to the chamber?
    • How do you keep the decorations inside from EITHER being dead weight OR being something that you stuff in as many of X block as possible?
     
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    Maybe I missed something above, but I think the main obstacle would be scalability. How do you prevent abuse of scale, also, how does this effect fighter-sized ships, anything too small to have much more than a cockpit?

    Edit: I like this idea from what you've said so far, I'm nitpicking intentionally to poke holes in your idea.
     
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    Just a thought (may not be a very good one):

    Why not make crew.... non-physical? (To reduce calcs/lag/desync)
    Instead of using actual NPC's, players can lay down walkway blocks to create "pathways"
    E.g Think Rollercoaster Tycoon sorta


    These "pathways" can generate crew "sprites". These are not actual crew, and are merly just visual sprites.
    They could have pre-built animations for walking and looking like ther're operating your ship.
    When not in visual range of a player, the sprites simply de-spawn.

    They do nothing.... but Sprites will spawn on pathways and "move" along them around your ship for minimal performance impact.
    As they are tied to the pathway blocks, they will not desynch, have physics, performance impact or lag.
    That also means they would essientialy be hologram-like to start off with ("Fake Crew").

    While no where near a complete feature, I feel at least this could be a viable step towards at least makig ships look "manned" for minimal impact of game performance. (As putting actual crew on ships is a bit of a no-go atm unfortunatly :,( )
    [Max. Virtual Sprites spawned could be linked to a value determined by the no. of crew areas over a certian size:? This could add bonuses to the ship:?]

    I recall other prjects succesfully using this system to simulate a busy/bustling human enviroment without killing the game in the process.
     
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    "Please state the nature of the medical emergency."
    MUCH WANT.
    I would also love if crew got all dramatic every time I got in combat.
    E.g. running around shouting Red Alert! Klingons in the Bridge! I'm outa here (glitching off the ship)