Balancing Starmade [Systems]

    Tsnonak

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    This entire thread is just ridiculous, as there are already other venues for this conversation that lack the absurd and counterproductive restrictions enacted by you. How can such a neutral and unbiased locale for information be useful if there can not be meaningful discussion? If we wish for a correct and/or meaningful idea to be reached, said idea must be proved more relevant and logical than its contenders. It is near impossible to validate a claim without addressing counterarguments and objections, so if this thread's purpose is to be obeyed, it is likely that no relevant conclusion will be reached. It pains me to be this direct and offensive, but we all want StarMade to offer a thoughtful and meaningful gameplay experience, and it is only fair that we, as a community, can have civilized discussions regarding the future of the game. At the same time this is StarMade, so I would be foolish to expect anyone to be civilized........
    The thread is to: " share facts / thoughts regarding ships & stations you have built to Dev-builds v0.202.6+ or QF-direct specifications.".
    This has not been done before...
    There are no other "venues" of this anywhere, that I am aware of...

    I am not sure how to make it any clearer.
     

    Nauvran

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    The thread is to: " share facts / thoughts regarding ships & stations you have built to Dev-builds v0.202.6+ or QF-direct specifications.".
    This has not been done before...
    There are no other "venues" of this anywhere, that I am aware of...

    I am not sure how to make it any clearer.
    basically, it's the QF thread but without suggestions
    So this thread is completely pointless. go to the official QuickFire Initiative thread and stop trying to go around it. You're only getting shut down because you're wrong and don't want to change your mind.
     
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    Ckeeze

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    only within an atmosphere or against some resistance ... assuming availability of sufficient power and/or time, only acceleration/deceleration should be different for different masses in a void/gravity-free-vacuum...same max/min speeds are potentially attainable.
    Schema told this many times, Other devs told this many times, QF configurators and simple players have told this many many many times.
    Realism IS NOT a valid reason to buff or nerf or change something if it takes a toll on gameplay. The ONLY reason anyone would build a small vessel is it's advantage over speed. in every other aspect larger vessels are better, you can't take away something's ONLY advantage and call it balanced. Smaller ships need better speed compared to larger ones because that is the one and only advantage they have,
    Besides, if you want realism we would have to remove maxspeed (or change it to c=300 000km/s), no system would give you diminishing returns, sectors would be hundreds thousands of kilometers wide, and etc etc... Each and every unrealistic aspect of the game is unrealistic for a very good reason. Mainly gameplay and performance.
     
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    Ckeeze

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    basically, it's the QF thread but without suggestions
    So this thread is completely pointless. go to the official QuickFire Initiative thread and stop trying to go around it. You're only getting shut down because you're wrong and don't want to change your mind.
    Sh shh shh shush!
    You'll insult hisfragile ego, don't you dare tell him why this entire thread is factially wrong and it's retarded rules are stupid! You'd be called a hater and a troll! Harr harr harr
     
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    Ckeeze

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    Some Extra-Clarification for the Elite-hater-Blockheads that do not seem to comprehend much more than: lol, lel, wut, and "monkey see monkey do"...

    The simple fact you could not retain yourselves nor comprehend the point of the thread is statement enough.
    I will try to explain it best I can...
    official suggestions and feedback should be directed to the "QuickFire thread".
    This thread is for sharing information, facts, and opinions, (and not clutter feedback with idle chit-chat).
    Discussion is welcome, not hate-debate.
    Clearly you are in the wrong thread.
    Note: This is an unfinished WIP & will be updated as the subject progresses*.
    "Har harr harr don't you dare challange my opinions that i cannot defend hater, don't you dare call me out for not speaking clearly and not telling you in a logical way what the hell I want to do with this thread with a bunch of confusing and contradicting restrictions"

    Yes it's entirely my fault that I don't understand why I can't debate (wich you at first completely disallowed and only added this AFTER i adressed your stupidity) fuck me i guess.
    It's entirely my fault that your rules contradicted each other, and even if they didn't the thread is irrelevant because of the existence of other threads tackling the same topics
    you keep calling everyone you disagree with a hater, heck you even called Keptic out for telling you facts that he wanted you to take into consideration! How can you accuse him of repeating himself and not staying on topic at the same time!?

    I aprechiate you trying to clear up what you actualyl want this thread to do, and changing your rules to make more sense at the same time you aren't very mature for with insulting anyone that pointed out these sources of confusion and contradicting rules.
     
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    TheDerpGamerX

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    Look, lemme put it in the nicest way i possibly can while still addressing the same point the previous posts have made:

    "share facts / thoughts regarding ships & stations you have built to Dev-builds v0.202.6+ or QF-direct specifications"

    The facts part wont work if no one (specifically you) keep denying them.

    I didn't want to have to be the one to say this, but I suspect that you only made this thread to complain about QF and how it is for "exploity pvpers", even if you didn't state so the intention is obvious based off your previous posts. There ARE many threads by others (such as OC) who have tried the exact same thing and get shot down all the same. Seriously, this is becoming a running gag now.
     
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    Ckeeze

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    You asked us to share opinions

    Opinions involve:
    -it's good -> don't change it
    -it's bad, because -> should be changed in such and such direction

    Opinions are inherently suggestions. But ok I won't post opinions about qf because all suggestions are to go to QF thread.
    However you thick headed idiot fail to recognise that:
    A: Keptic tryed to tell you how things work and how you should change your ship design to help you!
    B: Just because you don't understand the gameplay doesn't mean it's not balanced
    C: you can't balance around PvE or Roleplay, NPC ships use the same system as PvP ships because there are no other entities (space monsters or whatever) in game! Balancing PvP is balancing PvE because NPC ships can be ANYTHING A PLAYER BUILDS! Balancing around Roleplay is also impossible, just because you think it looks good doesn't mean something should also be OP or Meta, However it is possible to keep the look AND make it viable you just have to chose the systems accordingly, interior and decorations don't put you at a HUGE disadvantage most of the time, Roleplayers aren't bad at PvP because they decorate with useless junk (it doesn't weigh much) Roleplayers are usually bad at PvP because they stick to a specific weapon and shield configuration even tho it just doesn't work in PvP and refuse to change it to the right direction
    Examples:
    -"I want my ship to go fast! but I don't want to reduce armor shields or weaponry because i think my ships should have that, no I also refuse to make my ship larger and build a larger reactor"
    -"Why don't my turrets do more damage? No I don't want to make them bigger! It wouldn't work with my headcanon i have for this ship"
    -"Why isn't my ship faster? No I don't want to reduce armor and direct power to thrust"
    -"Why won't my tiny 50 mass drone swarm work against PvP behemots? No I don't want to increase drone mass because drones should be tiny!"

    You can solve almost any problem and make any build work you just have to make compromises even if it slightly disrupts your RP headcanon. And QF is DESIGNED around PvP you just can't go around that!
     
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    TheDerpGamerX

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    - The problem with bringing facts into the discussion is that you cant seem to agree on the facts

    - The problem with bringing opinions into the discussion is that opinions may be interpreted as fact, and would misrepresent aforementioned facts

    Do you see the problem here? why there must be fact checking? this should have been obvious from the start

    If theres no fact checking i could just make up random shit and say "grr i think qf is bad and they are all meanie exploit meta pvpers because it wouldnt let me make a hypercube"

    Your "examples" just show you are bad at building systems. You're clearly an rp player even if you don't want to admit it and QF wont really affect you. It is focused on entirely systems and balance, something rp players wont give a damn about as they dont build systems for best functionality.
     
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    Keptick

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    I just love how armor works in QF! There's real difference between the different armor types now! Here's some advanced armor tests, all shot by the same weapon:


    As you can see, the advanced armor gets better the more layers there are!!! This does not happen with basic armor! (Basic has other advantages).

    Pretty cool isn't it? It makes a lot more sense than vanilla configs that's for sure. It makes having a single layer of advanced armor on a large ship completely stupid! If someone was stupid enough to make a large ship with a single armor layer, they'd be better off using basic armor, since it has higher HP per block (but no armor rating, but armor rating is only useful in 2+ layers anyways).
     
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    DrTarDIS

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    This is sounding more like a suggestion than information on actual changes, it may be better to direct that directly to QuickFire Thread.
    Nah. I refuse to use their discord lobby, or reddit, which are the only ways devs will actually read what I type. I'm telling YOU what to put into your personal config file to fix the issue locally.

    There's zero(or close enough to) multyplayer ATM and all whining is about single player experience at this point.
     

    Tsnonak

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    What is going on here is simple; this is an Emo-fire, it is kindergarden recess and the forum-bandit-bullies are on the loose.

    The only complaining here is coming from: see above...
    because I dare to oppose.

    I am not RP or PVP, I am a server-admin and my builds revolve around this (for the blockheads that do not want to understand*).
    Not even a single "testship" has been provided by the Initiative...
    QF-Ghost is not my ship, it is just a hull from the dock, which I stuffed systems into for testing QF.
    I am not about to waste my time layering armor when I am testing thrusters, besides, it would only make it even slower.

    Boss Hoss Raider is a PVE ship, if it isn't clear enough.

    As is this: Excaliber Raider, it has layered armor.

    Facts about thrusters have been presented, Keptic is the only one raging on about armor...

    The recently "fixed" thrusters, (v0.202,13) will take a toll on gameplay, it doesn't matter if you are on SP or MP.

    Basically 99.96% of the posts here have nothing to do with the actual topic, the competence is pathetic.

    The thread is full of complaining, but not from me.
    ... and I am not about to waste more time arguing with blockheads.

    Go ahead, swarm the thread with your Goonswarm tactics...
     
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    Tsnonak

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    Nah. I refuse to use their discord lobby, or reddit, which are the only ways devs will actually read what I type. I'm telling YOU what to put into your personal config file to fix the issue locally.

    There's zero(or close enough to) multyplayer ATM and all whining is about single player experience at this point.
    This is clearly a suggestion, and jfyi: I already know how to fix it, ty!
     
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    Nauvran

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    What is going on here is simple; this is an Emo-fire, it is kindergarden recess and the forum-bandit-bullies are on the loose.
    Nope
    I am not RP or PVP, I am a server-admin and my builds revolve around this (for the blockheads that do not want to understand*).
    You being a server admin is just worrying and irrelevant. You not doing RP or PvP just makes your statements and "facts" less factual and less trustworthy.
    Not even a single "testship" has been provided by the Initiative...
    Have you asked for one? If not this might actually be a good point. Have a general ship that everyone tries to refit without changing the hull or interior and out from that see how balanced things are.

    I am not about to waste my time layering armor when I am testing thrusters, besides, it would only make it even slower.
    So you're not doing proper tests regarding thrust, at least thats what you're saying by not experimenting with different hull types and layers. Thrust is dependand on mass, so to do tests that would actually matter it would be a good idea to test a "light" version of the ship against a "heavy" version. which you have not done.
    Boss Hoss Raider is a PVE ship, if it isn't clear enough.

    As is this: Excaliber Raider.
    Irrelevant? do they even have QF systems?

    Facts about thrusters have been presented, Keptic is the only one raging on about armor...
    Because you keep spreading wrong information and dont seem to understand.

    The recently "fixed" thrusters, (v0.202,13) will take a toll on gameplay, it doesn't matter if you are on SP or MP.
    how so? whats wrong with iit? how is it taking a toll on ship gameplay?

    Basically 99.96% of the posts here have nothing to do with the actual topic, the competence is pathetic.
    we're talking about you and your thread and trying to discuss the thread topic with you but we're not getting anywhere because you dont want to accept new facts. You're too fixated on your own beliefs to not try to see things from a different perspective

    The thread is full of complaining, but not mine.
    ... and I am not about to waste more time arguing with blockheads.
    Says the blockhead ignoring all the facts that doesn't agree with his point of view
    anywho...
    Go ahead, swarm the thread with your Goonswarm tactics...
    What swarm tactics? people are replying because you're wrong, everyone is against you because you're wrong.
    And you dont want to accept that so we keep posting saying you're wrong.
     

    Ckeeze

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    Lol, I don't even know Nauvran for example and I spoke with Keptic on the QF discord very briefly only, It's not a swarm tactic, people just saw your thread, saw how little sense you made and adressed you to clear things up, I personally may have been disrespectefull as i lack torelance towards bullshit. but you have NO authority to say that the others were just raging and not relatively respectfully tryied to help you or clear things up, however you continue to call everyone "hater" "blockhead" etc... and then you wonder why the situation is escalated.
    PvE ships ARE PvP ships because theyuse the same system. If you want them as NPC's all you have to do is make them a bit weaker.
     
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    I am not about to waste my time layering armor when I am testing thrusters, besides, it would only make it even slower.
    Clearly you didn't read what we wrote several times. Mass has been rebalanced and as such systems are heavier than armor blocks. Which means that stuffing your ship with armor is actually going to make it lighter in comparison. So yes it is relevant.

    Not even a single "testship" has been provided by the Initiative...
    There is test ships given by the initiative in the catalog available on our server. However thoses ships are situationnal because we tested only one thing at a time. For example missiles prediction.
    As i told nauv on our discord providing test ships is extremely difficult. Because we have to provide a ship for a lot of different kind of mass and the worst is it is that we should provide different shapes for each. Plus theses ships have to be close to what the community builds. So detailed ships and all (a lot of work from our end). Even more to that we should provide for each ships and shape a different kind of setup. For example heavily armored ships or lightly armored, shield tanks, glass cannon... Not to mention the chamber setup or weapon loadout of each ships. So hum... I'm not being paid for playing starmade so hum... Test ships will stick to be bricks of blocks eh ?
    And the worst with that is that we're not even close to get a full balance there. Because the ships are the result of what we think is good. Not what might actually be good or broken. Good pvpers are people that think out of the box. And even if i try to, i'm not as ressourceful as the community will be. Nobody can be.
    But if you think you are i suggest you start providing us with test ships. We'll then test. But remember. Giving one entry on the dock of an old ship or shell is not what i call a test ship. A test ship is what covers everything i said above. Different weapons loadout, systems layout and armoring. Not to mention chambers or general shape. So likely 20 to 30 ships if i want to stay reasonable for only one given mass.
     
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    DrTarDIS

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    This is clearly a suggestion, and jfyi: I already know how to fix it, ty!
    Then you are all bluster and bitch. Thanks for claifying. May this thread sink to the depths where unproductive whingy cryfests belong. :D
     
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    The Judge

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    The worst part about arguing on forums, specifically SMD, is that everyone holds their convictions in such high regard, regardless of the constructive or destructive nature of said conviction.....
     

    Keptick

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    The worst part about arguing on forums, specifically SMD, is that everyone holds their convictions in such high regard, regardless of the constructive or destructive nature of said conviction.....
    Certain people seem to hold their convictions in SIGNIFICANTLY higher regard though... Enough to disregard any and all information that might potentially change or disprove their views.
     
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    The Judge

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    Certain people seem to hold their convictions is SIGNIFICANTLY higher regard though... Enough to disregard any and all information that might potentially change or disprove their views.
    Very much so, which is unfortunate.
     
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