Anyone still confused about integrity?

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    So... I saw a question in the current Q&A thread expressing a belief that integrity has made waffle arrays for salvage obsolete.

    I was surprised. I can only imagine that a lot of people are so intimidated by integrity that they still haven't actually tried doing a lot of building with it, because integrity allows very large waffles of 50x1 rods for salvaging. A 50x1 rod of salvage modules has positive integrity, and if it loses a block at any location, its integrity goes up, not down...

    So huge salvage waffles up to 50 in length are super stable and suffer no penalty at all from integrity, even when taking any kind or degree of damage.

    Now I am wondering how many other misconceptions are out there... it would be good to see it all cleared up.

    Anyone who hasn't actually experimented still think it forces you to build only in cubes or breaks game features or whatever?

    Questions for the players who have been testing it?
     
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    I am not intimidated by integrity at all and believe I understand it completely. I just think it's been poorly thought out and applied to things it shouldn't have been,. What point exactly does integrity serve on salvage beams? As far as I can see all it is achieving is an artificial limit that serves no purpose.
    Yes I'm aware if you only build the beams to 50 modules you can maintain integrity. So 50 length salvages are a little over a half strength beam. So what you're saying is we should be happy with a 50% strength waffle? Taking more options away... :( ... and that brings up the question, what's the point of a full strength 90 length module beam if it can't be used effectively? Do you see the problem. It's an artificial limit on the size of salvage waffles for no reason at all. You want optimized salvagers. Especially as they get bigger and put more pressure on servers. You want fewer beams not more. What's the point? What does it achieve?
     
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    Actually, the integrity system seems intended to create a choice where none was before. There was no legitimate reason to settle for less than the single, optimal configuration. Yes, anyone could have chosen at any point to build an array with inferior efficiency, but there was no benefit to doing so such as a more resilient mining ship. Now - in theory - you can either go 50x1 and have a stable, safe mining array, or opt for something more "bleeding edge" (closer to 100x1) that mines faster but shatters when taking damage (which, by the way, if your miner is taking damage it's toast anyway, so I'm not sure how it's 'ruined' by being slightly less like armor than any other system elements which are already quite vulnerable to damage).

    Except... that isn't even actually what happens in the game right now. Not in actual testing.

    Damaging a 100x1 salvage rod literally does nothing different than shooting a 50x1 savage rod does. Yes, there is a warning... but as of right now it's apparently just a scarecrow. The rod doesn't shatter. It doesn't explode. It doesn't cripple your ship. In fact, the remaining parts of the rod continue to function just fine. It doesn't even seem to take additional damage. At all.

    Also, if you compare the performance of a 50x1 rod against a 100x1 rod in a 100-block-deep sheet of mineral, you will see that 100x1 only slightly exceeds the performance of 50x1 rods. And by slightly I mean slightly. Repeated testing shows that a 100x1 rod held on target for a full cycle will dig down only 3 to 5 blocks farther than a 50x1, and that is on total dig depths of around 65 blocks for a cycle. 4/60 is in the neighborhood of 7%.

    Therefore the tested reality (at the moment) is that 100x1 S-rods are of equal combat stability (because for whatever reason salvage arrays are supposed to be combat resilient) and mine a whopping 7% faster than 50x1 S-rods (but require 200% of the resources to build and demand the same proportional difference both in power and in mass to be carried.

    So... I feel like the idea of integrity as forcing smaller salvage arrays is not only not reflective of the game as it functions at this time, but also doesn't actually reflect that even if it worked as theorized (where a 100x1 too additional combat damage) that this would make 100x1 S-rods non-viable or impossible to employ. If they were mining anywhere near double what 50x1 is I would probably be using them even if they were more fragile - at least on my heavy miners, though maybe not on the small salvage arrays like a combat ship might carry.
     
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    I guess that's why it kind of bugged me. It was clearly not based on applied testing (sorry - thorough applied testing).

    When I first started testing under integrity, the warnings freaked me out and I tried to make sure everything had max integrity - especially since so many older players on the forum were saying "OMG - integrity forces cubes or death" but in application high integrity is completely unnecessary. The integrity system is very forgiving and flexible for the most part - you just need to design in a way that avoids negative results.

    I feel like too much of the community has rejected integrity out of hand based on various theoretical interpretations of what it does, without ever verifying the reality of what it does through applied testing across various systems in different scenarios. I was as guilty of this for a while as many other are. I was reading and writing more than I was testing. No more though.

    Another example - perhaps the biggest - is the cube myth.

    Integrity doesn't actually favor cubes except under very specific conditions (smaller cubes are fine, but big cubes are dangerous), because low integrity doesn't hurt you at all - only negative integrity causes a system trouble, and even then it's only when they are being blown up anyway (and even then it only currently seems to meaningfully affect some systems, but not others).

    Consider the above salvage array example, where hundreds of 50x1 rods are every bit as functionally stable (even if salvagers took additional damage from damage while at negative integrity) as a cube would be.

    Not good enough? Still believe that integrity forces cubes because you've read it so many times? Consider a different system then. The big one that integrity definitely does affect - shields.

    A 30x30x30 cube of shields can take a direct missile hit that will gut it and leave the corners and right edges intact in with lots of single-block connections, causing integrity to plummet into the negative so that successive hit on any shielded part of the ship will cause explosions from your remnant shield group. I've done it. A couple of times. Being a cube with 2,000 integrity doesn't prevent negative stability at all. In fact, if you consider the shape of common damage types, there are formations that are much harder to blast into negative integrity than cubes (especially once cubes get really big).

    Using shapes composed of joined 3x3 shield rods, the overall integrity is never nearly as high as the integrity of a cube, but integrity only matters in combat and the integrity of various 3x3 rod forms is actually far less likely to go negative and become a problem to shields than is a giant cube. Because damage is just plain not likely to strip out 8 blocks over an extended distance but not destroy the 9th one, and that is the only way it can go negative integrity. Its almost impossible to pull off even when you're trying to... meanwhile actually severing all 9 blocks anywhere tends to stabilize integrity. So the base integrity of the system can be under 100 and it can still be less likely to someday land you in negative integrity than a mega cube is despite 4-digit integrity ratings. There are probably other good block arrangements that are also less likely to result in negative integrity during combat than a giant cube is, but I've only tested with blowing up thick rod forms so far.

    So...

    Integrity forces everything into cubes - myth.

    Integrity prevents optimal salvage arrays - myth.

    I just think we need to stop re-circulating myths & rumors, stop relying on others for truth, and get back to actually testing things to see how systems work.
     
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    I guess that's why it kind of bugged me. It was clearly not based on applied testing (sorry - thorough applied testing).

    When I first started testing under integrity, the warnings freaked me out and I tried to make sure everything had max integrity - especially since so many older players on the forum were saying "OMG - integrity forces cubes or death" but in application high integrity is completely unnecessary. The integrity system is very forgiving and flexible for the most part - you just need to design in a way that avoids negative results.

    I feel like too much of the community has rejected integrity out of hand based on various theoretical interpretations of what it does, without ever verifying the reality of what it does through applied testing across various systems in different scenarios. I was as guilty of this for a while as many other are. I was reading and writing more than I was testing. No more though.

    Another example - perhaps the biggest - is the cube myth.

    Integrity doesn't actually favor cubes except under very specific conditions (smaller cubes are fine, but big cubes are dangerous), because low integrity doesn't hurt you at all - only negative integrity causes a system trouble, and even then it's only when they are being blown up anyway (and even then it only currently seems to meaningfully affect some systems, but not others).

    Consider the above salvage array example, where hundreds of 50x1 rods are every bit as functionally stable (even if salvagers too additional damage from damage while at negative integrity) as a cube would be.

    Not good enough? Still believe that integrity forces cubes because you've read it so many times? Consider a different system then. The big one that integrity definitely does affect - shields.

    A 30x30x30 cube of shields can take a direct missile hit that will gut it and leave the corners and right edges intact in with lots of single-block connections, causing integrity to plummet into the negative so that successive hit on any shielded part of the ship will cause explosions from your remnant shield group. I've done it. A couple of times. Being a cube with 2,000 integrity doesn't prevent negative stability at all. In fact, if you consider the shape of common damage types, there are formations that are much harder to blast into negative integrity than cubes (especially once cubes get really big).

    Using shapes composed of joined 3x3 shield rods, the overall integrity is never nearly as high as the integrity of a cube, but integrity only matters in combat and the integrity of various 3x3 rod forms is actually far less likely to go negative and become a problem to shields than is a giant cube. Because damage is just plain not likely to strip out 8 blocks over an extended distance but not destroy the 9th one, and that is the only way it can go negative integrity. Its almost impossible to pull off even when you're trying to... meanwhile actually severing all 9 blocks anywhere tends to stabilize integrity. So the base integrity of the system can be under 100 and it can still be less likely to someday land you in negative integrity than a mega cube is despite 4-digit integrity ratings. There are probably other good block arrangements that are also less likely to result in negative integrity during combat than a giant cube is, but I've only tested with blowing up thick rod forms so far.

    So...

    Integrity forces everything into cubes - myth.

    Integrity prevents optimal salvage arrays - myth.

    I just think we need to stop re-circulating myths & rumors, stop relying on others for truth, and get back to actually testing things to see how systems work.
    My problem with integrity is that it's not very transparent (have to read a wiki to know how to fix it) and is counterintuitive (bigger numbers don't matter and the optimal configurations are strange).

    Those make building far less fun and easy to get into, and I don't see much of a point to it.
     
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    My problem with integrity is that it's not very transparent (have to read a wiki to know how to fix it) and is counterintuitive (bigger numbers don't matter and the optimal configurations are strange).

    Those make building far less fun and easy to get into, and I don't see much of a point to it.
    The integrity system is complex, and not entirely straightforward to analyze with simple math and that can be off-putting - no argument. It took extensive applied testing for me to feel comfortable with what a good integrity value is (including testing ships with low and borderline integrity systems). I feel that it technically is transparent in that we know the formula for integrity... but yeah, the numbers can get confusing even before we look at issues like the numbers not reflecting real, applied integrity in terms of how damage affects systems.

    I also feel that it is pretty intuitive. By which I mean that if you just ignore integrity numbers and build in good faith - using shapes that you could reasonably imagine might constitute a machine or system in some version of reality - you are almost always going to come up with positive integrity without even watching the numbers. If your integrity is under 100, maybe go back and try to improve the connectedness of the system. It really only becomes an issue when we try to look for extreme ways to force a few additional system blocks into gaps or between other things in order to use every available space for systems, or create weird meta-structures to exploit the nature of combat in voxel-space (issues of profile and exposed voxel faces, etc). Pouring is the quickest way to end up with bad integrity.

    Unfortunately, those are building instincts that many of us find hardwired at this point because the old system straight up rewarded them. So I think that for those of us used to the old system, no - it is not intuitive at all. Our intuition about space ship systems is twisted by years of system pouring. I believe it's a relative problem though. For new players entering cold, it's probably fairly intuitive in the same way that system pouring and the weird power shapes never were.

    And that seems to be the point of it. Integrity is a consideration that prevents many different kinds of "absurd systems" - a long time complaint by players, by the way. One of the more consistent complaints even. Integrity, stability and sanity didn't just pop up out of nowhere. For years players have complained that poured systems, extreme/absurd system shapes, detached elements and the like ruined the realism of the game, prevented immersion, and felt ridiculous to build as well as penalizing builders who did not pour systems into every available nook and cranny of a given hull (i.e. including, but not limited to, the practice of leaving interior space open for decorative rooms, corridors, etc). They complained that it was boring and over-simplistic. They complained that it didn't make sense to new players. They complained that it didn't allow (effective) alternative construction approaches that didn't in-fill. Years of that, that is the point of integrity. It's a response to player feedback. It's just not the response people expected.

    Pouring shields, pouring capacitors - this is what we all did though. For years. Because we had to. The old system left no choice that didn't weaken our ships, even though it didn't reflect any kind of real vessel or science fiction vessel ever conceived. Now the system has (mostly) removed the choice of pouring, and it's difficult for players to feel comfortable with a system in which they haven't filled every nook and cranny with systems, it feels like sub-optimal performance every time. That's about context though - the new optimal performance build has no relationship to the old and is far more abstract and difficult to pin to a specific shape or ratio.

    Build as if your systems might really contain and/or compose machines & devices, and the integrity naturally follows in almost every case. I believe it would be even more intuitive if the systems also demanded adjacent crew access space for maintenance and repair, but that heads off on a huge tangent.

    I can only speculate regarding the purposes and philosophy underpinning integrity, but I know it isn't what a lot of people have been saying it is. Cause testing. When in doubt, save the BP and just start shooting at it to see what actually happens. You might be surprised - I have been.
     
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    Integrity added nothing but frustrations so I disabled it, I do not intend to ever build with it because it adds nothing.
    Well ok it does something it adds unnecessary complexity that no one asked for, while turning away people.
    This is not a good thing.
     
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    The integrity system is complex, and not entirely straightforward to analyze with simple math and that can be off-putting - no argument. It took extensive applied testing for me to feel comfortable with what a good integrity value is (including testing ships with low and borderline integrity systems). I feel that it technically is transparent in that we know the formula for integrity... but yeah, the numbers can get confusing even before we look at issues like the numbers not reflecting real, applied integrity in terms of how damage affects systems.

    I also feel that it is pretty intuitive. By which I mean that if you just ignore integrity numbers and build in good faith - using shapes that you could reasonably imagine might constitute a machine or system in some version of reality - you are almost always going to come up with positive integrity without even watching the numbers. If your integrity is under 100, maybe go back and try to improve the connectedness of the system. It really only becomes an issue when we try to look for extreme ways to force a few additional system blocks into gaps or between other things in order to use every available space for systems, or create weird meta-structures to exploit the nature of combat in voxel-space (issues of profile and exposed voxel faces, etc). Pouring is the quickest way to end up with bad integrity.

    Unfortunately, those are building instincts that many of us find hardwired at this point because the old system straight up rewarded them. So I think that for those of us used to the old system, no - it is not intuitive at all. Our intuition about space ship systems is twisted by years of system pouring. I believe it's a relative problem though. For new players entering cold, it's probably fairly intuitive in the same way that system pouring and the weird power shapes never were.

    And that seems to be the point of it. Integrity is a consideration that prevents many different kinds of "absurd systems" - a long time complaint by players, by the way. One of the more consistent complaints even. Integrity, stability and sanity didn't just pop up out of nowhere. For years players have complained that poured systems, extreme/absurd system shapes, detached elements and the like ruined the realism of the game, prevented immersion, and felt ridiculous to build as well as penalizing builders who did not pour systems into every available nook and cranny of a given hull (i.e. including, but not limited to, the practice of leaving interior space open for decorative rooms, corridors, etc). They complained that it was boring and over-simplistic. They complained that it didn't make sense to new players. They complained that it didn't allow (effective) alternative construction approaches that didn't in-fill. Years of that, that is the point of integrity. It's a response to player feedback. It's just not the response people expected.

    Pouring shields, pouring capacitors - this is what we all did though. For years. Because we had to. The old system left no choice that didn't weaken our ships, even though it didn't reflect any kind of real vessel or science fiction vessel ever conceived. Now the system has (mostly) removed the choice of pouring, and it's difficult for players to feel comfortable with a system in which they haven't filled every nook and cranny with systems, it feels like sub-optimal performance every time. That's about context though - the new optimal performance build has no relationship to the old and is far more abstract and difficult to pin to a specific shape or ratio.

    Build as if your systems might really contain and/or compose machines & devices, and the integrity naturally follows in almost every case. I believe it would be even more intuitive if the systems also demanded adjacent crew access space for maintenance and repair, but that heads off on a huge tangent.

    I can only speculate regarding the purposes and philosophy underpinning integrity, but I know it isn't what a lot of people have been saying it is. Cause testing. When in doubt, save the BP and just start shooting at it to see what actually happens. You might be surprised - I have been.
    It's not just pouring that it hits. Anything resembling a scaffold or a needle gets hit hard. Also, blocky sections are very vulnerable when cracked open, the preferred structure seems to be weird patterns.

    Ultimately, it's a way to stop the need to shove crap between walls, but it's almost as frustrating to deal with properly.
     
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    I don't really find it difficult to work with at all at this point.

    I barely even notice it anymore.

    It's hard for me to understand how anyone who has played with it for a few hours can have difficulty effectively navigating it, but I guess everyone is different.

    I personally find it to be very forgiving and flexible. I haven't found any of my old designs that can't be replicated very easily, but I rarely built into hulls to begin with - I almost always built around my power cores already (and I mostly built under the softcap, so those end up being optimal now in the same shapes they were before), so systems were always in place before hull.

    I guess not having odd hull shapes to try and squeeze things into makes it mostly easy for me? But I have done some squeezing as well - just becomes an issue of changing system scales at a certain point if I absolutely do not want to alter a specific part of the hull and for some weird reason there isn't enough room to squeeze a stable system in.

    In terms of things being "hit hard" - what does that actually mean in practical terms? Because excepting shields, integrity doesn't seem to affect system performance at all...
     
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    Actually, the integrity system seems intended to create a choice where none was before. There was no legitimate reason to settle for less than the single, optimal configuration. Yes, anyone could have chosen at any point to build an array with inferior efficiency, but there was no benefit to doing so such as a more resilient mining ship. Now - in theory - you can either go 50x1 and have a stable, safe mining array, or opt for something more "bleeding edge" (closer to 100x1) that mines faster but shatters when taking damage (which, by the way, if your miner is taking damage it's toast anyway, so I'm not sure how it's 'ruined' by being slightly less like armor than any other system elements which are already quite vulnerable to damage).
    Salvage. Salvage/Beam. Salvage/Missile. Salvage/Cannon. Salvage/Pulse. That's 5 optimal configurations by my count and that's excluding going into double waffle configurations. Each one had an optimal configuration each with it's pros and cons. It was an interesting and varied system that presented choice and fun engineering challenges.
    I might add the vast majority of player built miners I've seen have been sub optimal.... I'm always on players cases to fix the number of modules in their beams to lessen the load on the server.
    I will concede your point that it gives you a choice between stable and unstable setups however I don't think it leads to the outcome you think it will. Players tend to want their cake and eat it too. This means that when they discover this mechanic, instead of choosing between 100 beams x90 modules and 100 beams x45modules they will instead, decide between 100 beams x90modules and 200 beams x45modules... that is not cool. I pretty much guarantee that players will choose a larger stable quantity of beams rather then fewer unstable beams. For the sake of server CPUs I'd rather players be using 1 beam of 90 then 2 beams of 45. Hence I believe this to be a bad mechanic.

    Except... that isn't even actually what happens in the game right now. Not in actual testing.

    Damaging a 100x1 salvage rod literally does nothing different than shooting a 50x1 savage rod does. Yes, there is a warning... but as of right now it's apparently just a scarecrow. The rod doesn't shatter. It doesn't explode. It doesn't cripple your ship. In fact, the remaining parts of the rod continue to function just fine. It doesn't even seem to take additional damage. At all.
    If I'm not mistaken this has been mentioned by devs as something that is currently incomplete. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that's not how it's intended to function.

    Also, if you compare the performance of a 50x1 rod against a 100x1 rod in a 100-block-deep sheet of mineral, you will see that 100x1 only slightly exceeds the performance of 50x1 rods. And by slightly I mean slightly. Repeated testing shows that a 100x1 rod held on target for a full cycle will dig down only 3 to 5 blocks farther than a 50x1, and that is on total dig depths of around 65 blocks for a cycle. 4/60 is in the neighborhood of 7%.

    Therefore the tested reality (at the moment) is that 100x1 S-rods are of equal combat stability (because for whatever reason salvage arrays are supposed to be combat resilient) and mine a whopping 7% faster than 50x1 S-rods (but require 200% of the resources to build and demand the same proportional difference both in power and in mass to be carried.
    Your methodology is flawed. Do not test different sized beams together. The game averages all beams fired thereby distorting your results.

    Firstly, a 100 beam is 10 modules over max cap. 90 modules is the maximum effectiveness of 'new' salvagers.
    Secondly. If you're testing two beams side by side and firing them both together., which it sounds like you are, then you're going to get funky results on the number of blocks mined. The system averages the number of blocks mined and spreads those blocks out amongst all beams that fired in an non representative way that doesn't adequately show what each individual beam mines on it's own or when it's in a group of other beams of equal size.

    If you fire each beam separately or in a group where all other beams are equal in size then;
    A 50 beam will mine 45 basic armour blocks. .9 blocks/module. (Sometimes 46 but only occasionally.)
    A 90 beam will mine 82 basic armour blocks. .91' blocks/module (For small arrays. As # of beams approaches 350 the efficiency drops but this is consistent for all sized beams. See Note* below.)
    A 90 module appears to be more efficient, it mines a fraction more blocks per module.
    (Interestingly when I tested a 45 module the slight difference in efficiency was less and they both pulled closer to the same number of blocks/module on average. So a 50 beam seems to be specifically a fraction less efficient probably due to some rounding in the formulas somewhere, then again it could be my limited test numbers.)

    If you fire two different sized salvage beams together then you will get the funky averaging that results in more blocks for the smaller beam and less blocks for the larger beam. Assuming you are firing a 90 beam AND a 50 beam at the same time using the same trigger then;
    It averages out around 58-59 blocks for the 50 beam.
    It averages out to around 69-70 blocks for the 90 beam.
    Which I believe is what you are doing given the numbers you posted from your 'thorough' testing. A rough and ready averaging system has thrown your results out. It is incorrect and not representative of what each beam actually mines. This behaviour and the numbers above have been consistent and repeatable across all my testing.
    Try setting up a test bed of salvagers that increment by 10 up to 90. Give them each a storage chest. Fire each one at a time and note how many blocks they pull. You will find they pull a number of blocks with very low variability. Normally +-1 block. Now fire them all together and note how many blocks they each pull... the results are very different. Each beams block pull will vary wildly, it's very inconsistent per beam but the average across all beams will still be relatively consistent.
    Now reconfigure your test bed and make all beams 50 modules. Repeat the above tests. Do the same thing for 90 modules. Now you will see that each beam, fired on it's own and also fired as a group where all beams are equal will pull the same block count pretty much every time.

    So... Do not test fire different sized beams together unless you want to get screwy results.

    Note*:
    An interesting thing I found in my testing. I was looking to see if there was a maximum effective cap on number of beams. Firing 90 module beams there was a slight decrease in (blocks mined / beam) for every extra beam up until about 350 beams. At that point the efficiency starts to increase. At about 350 beams the efficiency was around 78.8 blocks/beam. From there on up to 3000 it goes steadily up to 81.98 blocks/beam. So the bigger the array over 350 beams the better the efficiency. This was single player so results may vary when server latency comes into play.

    So... I feel like the idea of integrity as forcing smaller salvage arrays is not only not reflective of the game as it functions at this time, but also doesn't actually reflect that even if it worked as theorized (where a 100x1 too additional combat damage) that this would make 100x1 S-rods non-viable or impossible to employ. If they were mining anywhere near double what 50x1 is I would probably be using them even if they were more fragile - at least on my heavy miners, though maybe not on the small salvage arrays like a combat ship might carry.
    I believe you've got it backwards... Integrity won't force smaller arrays. It will force larger arrays of smaller beams.
    When given the choice between;
    1. A stable array of 100x 45 modules.
    2. An unstable array of 100x 90 modules
    Players will instead go for option 3. A stable array of 200x 45 modules.
    More beams = more load = more lag = :(


    EDIT: added to my complaints about new salvage beams as they used to be v's what they are now. I used to be able to get a very effective full sized salvage beam with only 18 modules. For a trade off. I could also get a full size salvage beam at 100 modules. And a full size salvage beam at 200 modules... Each one suited different ships... that choice is sorely missed.
     
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    Well, I do agree that integrity is probably supposed to have an effect on salvagers, but I haven't read anything definitive. It certainly isn't a problem right now.

    I tested the different mining rods each on their own computer, fired separately. I tested them each over 10 times, because the second test was a few blocks off from the first one so I wanted to get a broader sample...

    The 100 block beam only mines 6-7% more than the 50, so either there is some kind of curve in effect, or the limit is way lower than even 90 blocks (will test up and down in some 5 and 10 block increments and report).

    You do make a good point about shorter beams driving more outputs. I fully wish they would just drop the power limit per output and give salvage beams an acid effect... then we could just make a way more sparse array of much more powerful beams. I think the core issue of salvage outputs predates integrity by years though... Salvage outputs have always been a problem. If integrity ever does act in a way to encourage more outputs rather than less it would not be good, but I think the way to manage it is scale - integrity is only one issue that could potentially affect mining in the future.

    As far as option 3, if we are speculating about what players might do, why not just use option 4 and build 200x90 for even faster mining. Or 600x90 - why waste any time at all mining?
     
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    Just fired up Dev again and all the numbers on the salvagers have changed drastically...
     
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    Just fired up Dev again and all the numbers on the salvagers have changed drastically...
    That makes sense then - the salvagers were rather poor a month or two ago. Sorry for misunderstanding where you were coming from...

    The current dev cycle is seeing a lot of massive changes. Here in forum we are calling it "Weapons 3.0," but we may actually be misleading ourselves. The focus is definitely weapon development, but there is a lot of general balancing happening all over the place to bring systems in line with the new power dynamic and make them functional. It is difficult to even express how mercurial the situation in dev feels right now, but overwhelmingly it feels exciting - a lot of energy is going into it pretty much daily. To the point that I am now spending almost as much time in the official server now as I am in SP... because it's starting to feel almost playable again.
     
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    The biggest problem with integrity other than the unnecessary restrictions is the addition of another game mechanic which makes combat even more laggy. Large scale combat in StarMade as far as I know has never been something which could be labeled even the tiniest bit smooth due to the countless unoptimized calculations going on in the background.

    Integrity calculations when I first tested it were so unoptimized that it made the already poorly performing system at least 2 times worse.

    More so than new systems which restrict players we need OPTIMIZATIONS to almost every single system in this game from planets to fleets, material processing, collision handling, shipyards, chunkloading, sector change and so on and on and on...

    it's starting to feel almost playable again.
    This game will never be playable till they don't basically rewrite its entire code.
     
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    Edymnion

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    More so than new systems which restrict players we need OPTIMIZATIONS to almost every single system in this game from planets to fleets, material processing, collision handling, shipyards, chunkloading, sector change and so on and on and on...
    Such optimizations would be a waste of time right now as the universe update will change everything anyway.

    We're still in alpha. You don't do the major optimizations until things are mostly finalized, or else you have to redo them all over again a few months later when something changes. You optimize enough for it to be "good enough", aka playable, and don't worry about extreme cases.

    Just be patient, real optimizations will come in time. Until then, try focusing on smaller builds.
     
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    As Edymnion has said, optimization will likely come after the Universe update (which has been promised to come with a LOT of exciting content.)

    While the game lacks optimization, Schema has been working feverishly to finish Power 2.0 and Weapons 2.0. Integrity is not really that buggy any more, and integrity updates occur 2 mins after damage has actually been taken.

    Play the dev builds. They're unstable, certainly, but they're also very, very promising. I have noticed a significant uptick in stability recently, which makes me think we're close to a stable release.
     
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    This is a fascinating discussion, but I think we may all get more out of it if everyone published their results and methodology along with the summary results. Scientific method is our friend. That would also make it easier to track the progress of the game changes over versions. Some enterprising person could even create a part of the wiki where we could collect the results of everyone's tests.