Weapons 2.0 - :(

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    Not quite.

    I wouldn't count the weight of the entire turret; there's just too much armor plating and structure that strictly speaking, isn't a weapon.
    (Meaning, you'd use hull or armor blocks to represent them in-game)
    By your logic, if a ship has guns in it's main hull, then the entire ship would be "the gun".

    I'm fully aware of ammunition storage and feed, and I mentioned them accordingly. I too believe, in Starmade those systems would be represented with the same cannon blocks as the actual gun barrel. As long as nobody says they are all energy weapons, that require no ammunition, just magical reactor power, so I gave the absolute lowest number that's difficult to refute. By all means, go higher.

    Btw, did you see the guy I quoted, who wrote a 1:200 ratio of weapons to total volume would be realistic? Now THAT's not right.

    There's a problem though. On the real thing, only the gun barrel elevates. Expressed in-game, it'd mean a single weapon group is spread out over two or three entities, yet somehow remains joined through a single control computer.
    We can't do that in Starmade.
    We can build a big recessed pendulum that doesn't just traverse around as a real turret basket would, but swings back and forth as the guns elevate and depress (I assume that's what I see on your green&brown turret as well, if it's not a zero elevation design.)
    This is where the complaints of weapon sizes must have stemmed from. Not every hull design has room for a big internal pendulum. Especially replicas.

    .... Aaaand, didn't you get RP and PVP in reverse?
    An RP ship would spend mass and volume on decorative turret mechanisms and internal control stations, while a pvp builder would rather fill that room with system blocks. Combinations of the two exist, though.
    Some players have designed turrets that actually do more or less what you are talking about that allows for the turret base to not pivot but still be used. The base is recessed a bit so that the barrel can contain systems that fit into the turret base and then have room to swing down.

    upload_2018-5-29_11-57-3.png

    All of these are solutions to the question of how to make RP ships more competitive in PvP. None of them are going to beat the 3 more common PvP turret types, but they can come much closer than other designs such that if you make enough other good choices with your RP build, that you will still do well.
    [doublepost=1527614277,1527613631][/doublepost]
    If you aren't interested in aesthetics or realism then sure there's not much point to them.
    Drum turrets and orbital turrets are more than able to be aesthetic and realistic, but may not make replicas well because sci fi ships are typically designed around what looks cool or are based heavily off of 20th century design concepts instead of what future military doctrines would be.

    I'm sure the guy who designed this:

    upload_2018-5-29_12-12-28.png

    Would think that this is ridiculous:

    upload_2018-5-29_12-13-2.png

    And the guy who designed that would look at this and be like WTF?

    upload_2018-5-29_12-16-9.png
     
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    pre 2.0 alpha cannons (can/pul) were useful as sidearms because you could have a can/pul/ion weapon and a can/can/punch and use the can/can/punch all the time then briefly switch into can/pul/ion when the cooldown was up and go back to your machinegun wasting less than a second of DPS. With the charge mechanic they lose this ability since you can't use the machinegun while charging so you're wasting DPS for much longer and the sidearm ends up being a complete waste. 2.0 is extremely detrimental to have a varied weapon loadout.

    Aside from messing up weapons, the reduction in weapon mass you're allowed is one of the worst changes in the game's history. Long post ahead, but i do have a point.



    Turret And Hull Weights Of Various Tanks - Modern Vehicles Discussion





    "gun" part in starmade isn't just the barrel and chamber, it's also doing the reloading, ammunition storage, ammunition feed etc.

    Make that 1:2, not that MUH REALISM is any kind of sensible argument, but you really should be able to tell, simply from the size of a tanks turret compared to its hull that those numbers were bullshit. I'm sure the relative weight of guns would go down for tanks if they could fit shield generators as well.

    Having a healthy weight cost between the different systems is good for the game because we have the option had the option to modify how much mass we wanted to invest in different functionality; if 3% of your ship is your dps and 60% is your armor, why would you not drop armor to 57%, a tiny survivability bonus, to DOUBLE your dps? This is the problem with RP thinking; you decide what your ship should be like on some arbitrary conceptual basis, like rebuilding some dumbass star trek ship, while PVP building is tailored to the mechanics; you can NEVER tailor mechanics to someone who is ignoring them, it's ridiculous to suggest that you should.

    Wrt the realism, rp gunsizes and MUH SMALL GUNS:


    Take a look at the turrets here. On a battleship everything in the turret is what would be considered part of the weapon system in starmade, probably also some of the other stuff like munition storage, but i think starmade equivalent is reactor/capacitor blocks and those dont always go in turrets either, so fairly similar. This is what my turret designs for optimized PVP building looks like:



    Internal turret size:



    I'd say there's a lot more similarity between modern warships and PVP ships than RP ships, because they're both built around the same core idea of MASS DISTRIBUTION. PVP ships and warships are both optimized around having as much of the systems that make them effective (guns, engines, defense etc) and as little as possible of the stuff that's keeping those things running, or otherwise not contributing for the purpose the ship is built for.

    From watching RPers in their showers (yes i can do this) i've reverse engineered their building style as closely as possible, and it goes something like this:

    1. Construct a tube
    2. Doodle on it
    3. ???
    4. Beautiful, inefficient trash
    RP sees adding turrets to a design as nothing more than doodling; i've never seen an RP ship with turrets recessed into the hull, except as a tiny socket. No attempts at incorporating them into their interiors either; no gunnery stations no internal turret access, not even internal view of the turret so you can see them moving:



    No internal access like this:



    No visible / mechanical sockets like this:



    The key reason you don't see this is the method through which RP ships are built; you make the tube THEN you doodle on it. If the tube/hull is the first thing you make i imagine it's very dificult to get something like this to fit without severely compromising your design, especially if you've already started on your interior. PvP ships are, at least for everyone i know, built turrets first, because they are the most dificult part of the ship to adjust later in the build, so getting them right first and adjusting everything else accordingly is much easier, and PVP builders usually keep mass limits in mind before laying the first block so we know how many turrets we're going to fit and how heavy they'll end up being. Basically in PVP creating and fitting the turrets for a ship is part of conceptualizing it, similar to when RP builders are making wireframes for their ship's skeletons.

    My point here, and the following is pure, unadulterated conjecture, is that all the complaints from RP and cosmetic builders about turret/weapon sizes has nothing to do with realism or aesthetics. In terms of realism, turrets on real warships simply are fucking huge, not like the peashooters RPers build. Granted, they dont fit all their mass into their barrels, and theres a good coupple of arguments for allowing turrets to fit slaves and effects in the bases, but that also allows for a lot of potential exploits and much worse complexity in making turrets; for instance what happens if you have multiple weapon computers on the barrel and base? what if there is no base? what if you have multiple barrel entities(would be extremely common for single axis turrets)?
    The calls for realism also seem EXTREMELY particular about which "realisms" they want incorporated. Never seen anyone complain about how much a character can carry or sound in space.

    As for aesthetics, if it was simply about having turrets that look small, why don't RP builders use ball turrets? I don't have a good picture of one but you basically cram all the weapon systems into a sphere with 10-20% of the sphere sticking up above the hull, like this:



    With a double jointed center. Sure they can't depress at all, but little things like turret coverage never bothered them before. Sure turrets wont have the exact same shape or movement as a regular turret, but the point is there are plenty of options that allow visually small turrets that are still high mass and i've never seen an RP ship use them, so i'm calling bullshit on the aesthetic argument for microturrets as well.

    I believe, and feel free to correct me on this you larping bastards, that it is neither aesthetics nor realism that cause the call for smaller weapons, but rather that RP process introduces turrets to a ship in the final stage of shipbuilding, often after interior and definitely after exterior are supposed to be finished, where fitting a turret of sufficient mass to the ship would force the builder to completely rebuild huge sections of their ships because there's a huge deathball in the bathroom all of a sudden. It's the only thing that explains why they never have turret oriented interiors, because when adding interiors to a shell that already has huge turrets integrated, it's super obvious to add a few walkways and consoles to the turret and let it have it's own little room.

    If changing weapon sizes did nothing but let RPers build ships the way they want as it's natural for them, i'd be all for it, but the reduction in weapon sizes has come at unacceptable cost to PVP builders. The only way you could limit weapon sizes without simply multiplying the damage of existing weapons was through 2.0's reactor system that has taken away mass distribution as a design mechanic so we can no longer exchange mass in one system for mass in another, because everything is gated by the power restriction. This forces all ships into fixed ratios, or extremely limited ones, completely eliminating the possibility of different ship doctrines.

    The ability to make functionally unique ships, not merely painting different looking ones, is the core draw in starmade for every competitive builder, and it has been ERASED by 2.0. We are NOT going to convert to roleplayers or cosmetic builders, we are simply going to leave. The elimination of variety in ship doctrines is also horrible for combat in general. Even if the game has multiple weapon options, if all ships have the same speed, defense and staying power then one weapon is going to be the best, because all fights will have the same context, except for ships being smaller/larger, but since that now translates to being a fixed amount stronger/weaker than the other guy i don't see a situation where one weapon would be best against a similar sized ship and less than 50% as good against a ship half your size as the others. Most fps have characters with the same stats, but they have terrain to offset things. If an FPS takes place in open space with no obstacles for 10s of kilometers i call dips on the sniper rifle.

    So if the weapon miniaturization and 2.0 which is necessary to enforce it has completely destroyed the fun in competitive shipbuilding and drastically reduced the fun in simple combat which amounts to the vast majority of players losing out on what they enjoy, and all that it gains is that RP builders don't have to adapt the way they build ships, isn't that a super stupid update?
    I think you are mostly right, but your tone's a little out there and you're painting a broad brush.
    While I generally don't recess turrets into the hull in RP builds, I do spend as much time on them or more as everything else. StarMade turrets work better when sticking out a ton from the hull because turning is ass and there's not a big worry of disconnecting them as they'll usually be long dead first. I always make sure there's a way to access them and that there's cameras on them.
    Also, I don't bother turreting Star Trek ships in general, all their weapon designs are fixed and they're pretty much space hotels with artillery pieces inside; fun for smashing pirates with, but useless against players. A piracy ship I'll just make with the same weapons without the space hotel attached; turrets are more a thing when getting serious with an original design that should be able to defend itself easily with little to no piloting.
     
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    madman Captain

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    My point is not to fucking throw away the core of competitive building, and with it 80%+ of the people playing the game just so a handful of morons can have their ships look the way they think they should look.
    I still cant understand why people still defend competitive in Starmade? I mean I dont like robocraft but every aspect related to pvp is better there, things like movement, weaponhandling, mapdesign and more. For the love of satan, if you want Spaceship PvP play Fractured Space or Dreadgnought, at least for FS I can promise you the fights are a milion more entertaining. Hell I even would play CoD MW3 again before I would
    play Starmade competitive. And I hate CoD what a shit game.

    And could you please stop call other people moron just because they play this game different and/or have different demands to the game. This is still a sandbox game and your playstyle isnt in the slightest more important than anyothers palystyle.
     

    Raisinbat

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    I still cant understand why people still defend competitive in Starmade? I mean I dont like robocraft but every aspect related to pvp is better there, things like movement, weaponhandling, mapdesign and more. For the love of satan, if you want Spaceship PvP play Fractured Space or Dreadgnought, at least for FS I can promise you the fights are a milion more entertaining. Hell I even would play CoD MW3 again before I would
    play Starmade competitive. And I hate CoD what a shit game.
    Maybe that's because you never listen to anything posted and have no fucking idea what the pvp community wants from the game. Starmade did one thing that no other game does, and that was allow competitive shipbuilding with actual shipdesign, rather than a bunch of templates or predefined roles you had to follow. This is the single biggest selling point for me. In robocraft you make a box and attach wheels and premade weapons to it. In empyrion you make a box and attach thrusters and premade weapons to it. In space engineers you make a box and attach thrusters and premade drills to it. In galactic junk league you make a box and attach premade weapons and thrusters to it, then you level up the box and attach more premade weapons and thrusters to it. Fractured space doesnt even have shipbuilding in it, and dreadnought doesn't look like it either.

    This was the one thing starmade had going for it, and the devs threw it out while the larpers cheered. This could've made starmade a unique and massively popular game, instead it's being cultivated into a god damn walking simulator by a bunch of clowns hooting about interior decorating and star trek replicas or whatever the fuck it is you want, i cant even tell what you do in game all the time. Do you even play starmade or is it just a drawing program to you?

    And could you please stop call other people moron just because they play this game different and/or have different demands to the game. This is still a sandbox game and your playstyle isnt in the slightest more important than anyothers palystyle.
    Right back at you scumbag. Why do you fucks ALWAYS accuse everyone else of doing the exact shit you're doing, even if we're not? You just said yourself that starmade's combat is garbage, do you seriously expect anyone to play this game if that remains true?

    We know from the moderator callout thread that larpers have been harassing PVP players for ages so clearly you fucks are the ones who can't tolerate people who play differently. It's piss obvious from how so much discussion here revolves around "how to make rp more competitive" as if there was any reason why it should be. Simply rewording it "how do we remake the game so pvp isn't possible" clearly spells out that they want us fucking gone, and you expect us to pretend you're some kind of decent person while passive aggresively pretending i hate these fucks because they "have a different playstyle". I hate these fuckers because THEY believe their way of playing is the only way to play, despite PVP being the core gameplay in starmade for years, suddenly everything has to revolve around their shitty larping with interiors, crews and factions, all of which, by the way, has massively undermined starmade as a game. You are a tiny, insignificant part not just of this community but every gaming community, yet you dominate all discussion on the forums and have the devs catering to you nonstop.
     
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    Maybe that's because you never listen to anything posted and have no fucking idea what the pvp community wants from the game. Starmade did one thing that no other game does, and that was allow competitive shipbuilding with actual shipdesign, rather than a bunch of templates or predefined roles you had to follow. This is the single biggest selling point for me. In robocraft you make a box and attach wheels and premade weapons to it. In empyrion you make a box and attach thrusters and premade weapons to it. In space engineers you make a box and attach thrusters and premade drills to it. In galactic junk league you make a box and attach premade weapons and thrusters to it, then you level up the box and attach more premade weapons and thrusters to it. Fractured space doesnt even have shipbuilding in it, and dreadnought doesn't look like it either.

    This was the one thing starmade had going for it, and the devs threw it out while the larpers cheered. This could've made starmade a unique and massively popular game, instead it's being cultivated into a god damn walking simulator by a bunch of clowns hooting about interior decorating and star trek replicas or whatever the fuck it is you want, i cant even tell what you do in game all the time. Do you even play starmade or is it just a drawing program to you?



    Right back at you scumbag. Why do you fucks ALWAYS accuse everyone else of doing the exact shit you're doing, even if we're not? You just said yourself that starmade's combat is garbage, do you seriously expect anyone to play this game if that remains true?

    We know from the moderator callout thread that larpers have been harassing PVP players for ages so clearly you fucks are the ones who can't tolerate people who play differently. It's piss obvious from how so much discussion here revolves around "how to make rp more competitive" as if there was any reason why it should be. Simply rewording it "how do we remake the game so pvp isn't possible" clearly spells out that they want us fucking gone, and you expect us to pretend you're some kind of decent person while passive aggresively pretending i hate these fucks because they "have a different playstyle". I hate these fuckers because THEY believe their way of playing is the only way to play, despite PVP being the core gameplay in starmade for years, suddenly everything has to revolve around their shitty larping with interiors, crews and factions, all of which, by the way, has massively undermined starmade as a game. You are a tiny, insignificant part not just of this community but every gaming community, yet you dominate all discussion on the forums and have the devs catering to you nonstop.
    As someone who mostly builds Star Trek replicas nowdays, I didn't ask for power 2.0 and think it needs PvP-oriented changes in how stabilization works. Believe it or not, Star Trek's ship combat actually is a decent combat system for spaceship game PvP (as several games can attest to). Now, 90% of the ship for most Trek ships being hallways etc. is crazy, so Star Wars ships are more logical in design, but if StarMade combat was Trek-like, PvP would be pretty good.

    Also, most changes made recently are designed in support of PvP balance. The weapons update can only really be said to have an RP focus in asthetics (cannons looking like pulse phasers/disruptors), which doesn't hurt PvP at all.

    In short, please stop blaming people who want more interesting ship design where the optimal ship does look nice for an imagined treatment of PvP players as second-class citizens. PvPers have always gotten priority on game design as is correct.
     
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    READ. THE. GODDAMN. POST.
    So, cannons looking cool hurts PvP?
    [doublepost=1527634708,1527634435][/doublepost]
    Would you please clarify whether you mean design or engineering here.
    Both. Engineering and asthetics come together with having to use and space out armor as well as change weapon dimensions based on intended effect.
     

    Raisinbat

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    Hey Raisinbat, can you calm down with the swear words ? Who's going to read you if most of what they read is insults ? You have some good points but they are lost amongst your ugly words...
    Why should i put in effort to not be an asshole if he wont put in the effort to be an idiot? You're welcome to rewrite the posts you find offensive in a more polite tone if you want to.

    Lecic was always polite and he got run off the forums for it. Clearly being civil with this tool has zero benefit for me or anyone else.

    So, cannons looking cool hurts PvP?
    If changing weapon sizes did nothing but let RPers build ships the way they want as it's natural for them, i'd be all for it, but the reduction in weapon sizes has come at unacceptable cost to PVP builders. The only way you could limit weapon sizes without simply multiplying the damage of existing weapons was through 2.0's reactor system that has taken away mass distribution as a design mechanic so we can no longer exchange mass in one system for mass in another, because everything is gated by the power restriction. This forces all ships into fixed ratios, or extremely limited ones, completely eliminating the possibility of different ship doctrines.
    Maybe that's because you never listen to anything posted and have no fucking idea what the pvp community wants from the game.
     
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    Why should i put in effort to not be an asshole if he wont put in the effort to be an idiot? You're welcome to rewrite the posts you find offensive in a more polite tone if you want to.

    Lecic was always polite and he got run off the forums for it. Clearly being civil with this tool has zero benefit for me or anyone else.
    You have failed to realize I was talking about projectile models...
     
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    Cannon blocks themselves have not had any visual changes in the dev build (length/width matter, but that should be good for PvP and may hurt some RP setups a bit), but cannons look better firing due to the new projectiles.
     
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    Hey Raisinbat, can you calm down with the swear words ? Who's going to read you if most of what they read is insults ? You have some good points but they are lost amongst your ugly words...
    i read what he says. i dont care how "ugly" a word is, i care what thought it conveys.
    That's probably because most ships, tanks, and helicopters don't have guns that take up 30% of the entire vehicle, and because they have things supporting them like, y'know, dirt, water, or air.

    If you want a ship with "realistic" recoil, give yourself one cannon block per every two hundred blocks or some shit.
    i mean, your avg tanks turret is 30% its total. but i think the point here if going for some sorta pseudo realism (stupid idea anyway) is that in a future where warp technology is as common as dirt, thered likely be some kinda advanced stabilization that can negate recoil effects, or at least limit them to 1 direction opposite push that barely hurts aim. it wouldnt matter how big the weapon is; the recoil would be insignificant.

    anyway i dont think recoils necessarily a bad idea if you look at it from a "fun" perspective and not some bullshit realism angle... but its probably too harsh if its making guns not feel useful.

    as far as looks go... functional beauty is different from environment to environment.
     

    Raisinbat

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    Both. Engineering and asthetics come together with having to use and space out armor as well as change weapon dimensions based on intended effect.
    You have NO FUCKING IDEA what PVP is. The absolute fundamental of PVP shipbuilding is MASS DISTRIBUTION. 2.0 has removed MASS DISTRIBUTION from shipbuilding, as we are now stuck with fixed power generation which prevents any real deviation in shipbuilding from:

    optimal ship
    Which is a thing that didn't exist prior to 2.0, nor should it.

    You talk about engineering as if you have any god damn clue what that means in starmade terms. You have NEVER built a functional combat ship in your life, or you wouldn't claim something this stupid to be an engineering thing. The only scenario where having a wider projectile over a deeper penetrating one is beneficial is when shooting fighters with cruiser grade weapons. How can you call it design OR engineering when the only sensible thing to do with it is a one block thick line?

    PvPers have always gotten priority on game design as is correct.
    Every ballancing attempt made in the games history has been trying to accomodate dumbass RP requests; 2.0 has been denounced by every single PVP vet in the community, many of which have left at this point specifically due to 2.0. 2.0 itself was added to force interior for RP players, while PVP complaints with old players got completely ignored.

    Or you could simply look at this incompetent update, and compare it to the problems the PVP community has brought up, like:
    • Range tied to sector size (Completely gamebreaking)
    • Beams ludicrously OP (Completely gamebreaking, related to 1.)
    • CAN/MIS and BEAM/MIS utterly useless
    • No target leading, neither for AI or indicator for player
    • Can't toggle weapons off in 2.0 (Prevents sidearms)
    NONE OF WHICH were addressed in the update. Please, explain to me, how in the everloving fuck we have priority when everything we complain about gets ignored, and the game progressively revolves more and more around RP, interior and crew shit?

    In short, please stop blaming people who want more interesting ship design
    You make replicas. You don't design, you just copy what others have made. Everything you like about the update you like because its beneficial to your disgusting star trek garbage, regardless of how much everything else is rekt. Again, shape of guns determining penetration renders a lot of common turret designs dysfunctional because they aren't barrels, but of course this doesn't bother you, so it's great! fuck everyone else!

    imagined treatment of PvP players as second-class citizens
    Because we didn't have a resigned moderator confirm this to be the reality of the docks moderation.

    I mean really, you are here in a thread where people are discussing the negative impact of weapons 2.0 for PVP, telling us we don't know what we want and don't understand why the updates that have caused a majority of us to abandon the game are actually great for us. How even though you build replicas and don't really engage with the game outside of that, at least you're saying you'd rather play CoD than starmade combat, changing parts of the game that you don't use so that the people using it are having a worse time is good because on some conceptual level your replica got slightly more viable. Not only that, but further making the game revolve specifically around your build style is actually going to make the game better for US, because it's not at all about what YOU want.

    You are the pinnacle of entitlement. If a PVPer acted the way you did and made posts talking about removing slabs, wedges and colours from the game because he wants to build PVP ships and its NOT FAIR that cosmetic builders have better looking ships than he does, just because they put effort into their ships aesthetics, then acting like you wouldn't be justified in calling that an "attack on cosmetic builders" they'd be banned for trolling.
     

    madman Captain

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    Maybe that's because you never listen to anything posted and have no fucking idea what the pvp community wants from the game. Starmade did one thing that no other game does, and that was allow competitive shipbuilding with actual shipdesign, rather than a bunch of templates or predefined roles you had to follow. This is the single biggest selling point for me. In robocraft you make a box and attach wheels and premade weapons to it. In empyrion you make a box and attach thrusters and premade weapons to it. In space engineers you make a box and attach thrusters and premade drills to it. In galactic junk league you make a box and attach premade weapons and thrusters to it, then you level up the box and attach more premade weapons and thrusters to it. Fractured space doesnt even have shipbuilding in it, and dreadnought doesn't look like it either.
    Congratulation! You are without lieing the first person who explained that in a way so it make sence to me (or at least the first one where I read the post, I'm not that often in this forum and if I,I prefer the art threads, its prettier there and the people are less toxic). Well I understand your point, yes Starmade is the only game I know witch have this abilitys. Anyway in terms of PvP I prefer a good fight over the ability to build my stuff myself.

    This was the one thing starmade had going for it, and the devs threw it out while the larpers cheered. This could've made starmade a unique and massively popular game, instead it's being cultivated into a god damn walking simulator by a bunch of clowns hooting about interior decorating and star trek replicas or whatever the fuck it is you want, i cant even tell what you do in game all the time. Do you even play starmade or is it just a drawing program to you?
    Yes quite accurate its more or less an art platform for me. Because thats where starmade is truly superior.
    Its simple, if i want to build spaceships I play starmade, for survival Empyrion or Minecraft, for spacesim Avorion or good old X3 and for PvP Fractured Space.

    Right back at you scumbag. Why do you fucks ALWAYS accuse everyone else of doing the exact shit you're doing, even if we're not? You just said yourself that starmade's combat is garbage, do you seriously expect anyone to play this game if that remains true?

    We know from the moderator callout thread that larpers have been harassing PVP players for ages so clearly you fucks are the ones who can't tolerate people who play differently. It's piss obvious from how so much discussion here revolves around "how to make rp more competitive" as if there was any reason why it should be. Simply rewording it "how do we remake the game so pvp isn't possible" clearly spells out that they want us fucking gone, and you expect us to pretend you're some kind of decent person while passive aggresively pretending i hate these fucks because they "have a different playstyle". I hate these fuckers because THEY believe their way of playing is the only way to play, despite PVP being the core gameplay in starmade for years, suddenly everything has to revolve around their shitty larping with interiors, crews and factions, all of which, by the way, has massively undermined starmade as a game. You are a tiny, insignificant part not just of this community but every gaming community, yet you dominate all discussion on the forums and have the devs catering to you nonstop.
    Manners please. I wanted that you stop insulting people.

    I really wanted to take you serious but this sounds so dumb what are you? conspiracy theorist?
    Btw Im not an RP player or a PvP player Im just builder.
     
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    Congratulation! You are without lieing the first person who explained that in a way so it make sence to me (or at least the first one where I read the post, I'm not that often in this forum and if I,I prefer the art threads, its prettier there and the people are less toxic). Well I understand your point, yes Starmade is the only game I know witch have this abilitys. Anyway in terms of PvP I prefer a good fight over the ability to build my stuff myself.


    Yes quite accurate its more or less an art platform for me. Because thats where starmade is truly superior.
    Its simple, if i want to build spaceships I play starmade, for survival Empyrion or Minecraft, for spacesim Avorion or good old X3 and for PvP Fractured Space.



    Manners please. I wanted that you stop insulting people.

    I really wanted to take you serious but this sounds so dumb what are you? conspiracy theorist?
    Btw Im not an RP player or a PvP player Im just builder.
    I think he's lost it; I actually hate the current state of Weapons 2.0, but for some agreement with design goals behind it, I'm now personally responsible for Schine's poor decisions, some kind of conspiracy to remove PvP from the game so that a Galaxy class can be combat-capable in its size range (even in Star Trek btw it is strongly implied it's oversized, as without the saucer it's a better combat vessel), and based on his tone, murdering his dog.
     

    DrTarDIS

    Eldrich Timelord
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    So, I only really logged in when I checked on the forums because of this thread. That being said I'mma share some ancient wisdom with the newbs having the same old arguments.

    TLDR: It's not weapons 3.0, systems 2.0 or even really unnamed Fascist left-wing retards they decided to promote to mod in 2017's fault the game doesn't game anymore.

    So, circa 2012-13 on my older account, the game was, quite frankly, crap. But it still had more "game" to it than it than as of the last time I actually played. I'll leave that one as an obtuse statement you can check out for yourselves if you download one of the ANCIENT build.

    Fast forward to 2014-15, I'll call this era Weapons 1.0 era. I check back in, but alas I can't remember my password and old email provider has shut down so I'm not getting that back any time soon. Oh well, I'll be DrTarDIS (the name is a meta-joke, and I doubt many have ever figured it out). Oh wow, we got cannons AND missiles now? Cray cray. Missiles are crap tho, yer cray if you use them. Functional player-driven tech tree, better build mode, semi-sane crafting system...damn the game is a GAME now. It is a golden age, each weapons system has a bunch of sliders to let you REALLY tweak your builds. you want a sniper-cannon? Dial-back your reload or your Damage Per Projectile and crank that Projectile Speed and Range. Real easy customization for your blobs of weaponry. Arguably, there is a very exact "best weapon period" being a 2kish blob with 0.1 reload, 8km(4 sector) range, max proj velocity and 2-3 dmg above the hp of advanced armor. Core-drilling was all that mattered. Mounting this weapon system was utterly game-breaking, but only because core-drilling was a thing. Missiles were fun, but useless, only because core-drilling was a thing. SD-BB & SDKB cool concept, flat-faced implementation. GenX Nova admins can only defeat my 2-man-clan if they use /destroy-entity-dock. Even then, it only lasts for about 20 seconds because we own ALL the credits in every shop for 90-some sectors cubed and have them stashed in "black-box" stations. The end-game is forming a post-scarcity society anyway, PvP is just a side-game. Stacking a chain of max-level recipes (which you have to research yourself) so that you have an infinite supply of literally every resource on hand. Cannons, shields, hull? Can make all of it in server-breaking quantities in around 10 minutes out of a 2 flowers and a bit of lava for seed. That's the endgame. Sweet. PvP salt-n-pepper on the side.

    2015-16 we see several major improvements to the game. Also, several total face-plants that are to this day unaddressed. Shields are split into recharge and capacity to allow more variance in ships, fkin awesome. AIming changed to a "random block" instead of just "the core" so 8km insta-gib turrets aren't the ONLY meta anymore. kinda cool. Good job. Weapons 2.0 drops. We get beams now. Nice. WE lose our awesome slider-weapons tweaking but it's moved over to ratios of the "main blocks." Sure. Can adapt. makes some sense. PvP is once again viable as core-drilling is phased-out and system/mass HP replaces it. (cause yeah, insta-gib core-drilling up to 3k blocks in under 1 second is just wrong and broken and we should feel ashamed for taking advantage of it in our ship-that-never-leaves-cloak while killing ships that are 3 times over Bobby's server mass-cap just to make them feel bad about themselves...) Good job Schine. We have a game. CRAFTING 2.0 drops Adding the 3 different factory types, getting rid of the old crafting system with a super broken one that uses too many resources and doesn't use them well is kinda bad but...I guess grinding is a thing now. Adapt, overcome. Oh, all the server-optimizations are screwed-over because people need to have a personal Unicron/beast to be able to field a ship over 10k mass...well...ignore that...grind is a NECCESARY PART OF A SPACE SIM...Do NOT address horrible "crafting system" and it's impact on server-lag and game playability because "people need to grind to be allowed to build ships now and that is how this game is supposed to be and that is that STFU playerbase we are here now!" Find new ways to become post-scarcity societies is still the end-game(**cough cough shipyards are useless as shipyards but I can get free resources out of them so cool COUGHCOUGHcough**). Systems 1.1 is a thing, for a while we can have Ships that Absorb weapon damage over-parity in either shields or hull, resulting in hilarious unsinkable things that GAIN up to "null-pointer" shield integrity by taking damge. Well that's fixed not by enforcing a max value on shields systems or armor hp, but by tweaking the max-active-blocks of your systems. Whatever, you do what you want shiine. it works...too bad the servers are still being rendered unplayable by massive block-changes from mining rigs but...

    2017 we have fleets now! They add a whole new level of depth to gameplay! they can mine for you so you don't have to grind...oh wait they're spinning in place...i guess fleets are ballerinas now...ballerinas crashing into everything and causng more lag....whatever we're bored working on fleets it's time for...Oh, yeah Systems 1.1 wasn't enough. We need 2.0 now, because 1.1 is laggy (It's totally NOT because of laggy mining system and crafting system we are NOT going to talk about that! Do NOT look behind the curtain! Don't look at fleets and their poor behavior either!) We don't have a "game" anymore but it's not crafting 2.0's fault! it's not system's 2.0's fault either! Oh, and we're not going to spreadsheet the systems 2.0 or use any of our "assets" we spent months making for the fleets enhancement as guidelines before we "design it".....aaaaaaannnnnd we're going to update weapons too...no spreadsheeting on that either.....aaaannnd it's 2018 now and those weapons are just Starting to be spreadsheeted, a little, but only because they're laggy and unbalanced...
     
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    i read what he says. i dont care how "ugly" a word is, i care what thought it conveys.


    i mean, your avg tanks turret is 30% its total. but i think the point here if going for some sorta pseudo realism (stupid idea anyway) is that in a future where warp technology is as common as dirt, thered likely be some kinda advanced stabilization that can negate recoil effects, or at least limit them to 1 direction opposite push that barely hurts aim. it wouldnt matter how big the weapon is; the recoil would be insignificant.

    anyway i dont think recoils necessarily a bad idea if you look at it from a "fun" perspective and not some bullshit realism angle... but its probably too harsh if its making guns not feel useful.

    as far as looks go... functional beauty is different from environment to environment.
    Man, you do talk about the recoil of an antimatter launcher. Antimatter obtained straight from energy, no matter consumed in the process. WTF is recoil compensation compared to this? Are you even sure the antimatter needs to be launched or is it created with forward velocity from the instant of its creation?

    As far as PvP and RP goes, I am also a builder. I mean I sucked in Quake Arena, kept on sucking even worse in CS, hardly managed with save and reload to do some stuff in X3 until I got my Paranid Yacht that is so OP that since then I had no more problems against Xenons and died less even to the Kaak destroyers/carriers. I do suck at PvP, I make convoluted battle plans that go blown up in the first seconds of a fight, I have slow reflexes, bad distributive attention... I am a lot better in real with my fists than in virtual with missiles and beams and in real I am actually average :).

    But in SM good engineering used to matter just as much as good pilot skills. I was able to actually fight and sometimes win against 2-3 times bigger ships than mine. Not because I outsmarted the enemy pilot. Because my ship outsmarted his ship. I became obsessed with efficiency and sometimes regret using too much of a single layer of AAs to give my ship a color (they do have a mass) or having 3x3 tunnels in my ship (filled up with fields for better protection) for access to its core from different sides. And then I rethink the ship, trying to make its corridors shorter, deciding again what needs to be covered by AA and what does not really need to.

    Honestly, making corridors to access turret bases when you can visit them by means of side arrows from the main ship core seems a bit useless, a waste of space you could have used better. But to each his own. Maybe you feel you need them in combat, IDK.

    Tl Dr: I love this game because it lets me build for combat and use myself what I built in combat. I don't give a paper sheet about building toilets into my ship, or beds, or cafeterias with windows to the outside of the ship, to see the incoming 58 ranged missiles in all their splendor. Since the game does actively take out a possibility after another of outsmarting opponent ships, I stopped at a legacy version, (0.19228) trying to perfect my ships in that version. I'll probably move to the current version once it gets so many different possibilities of aiming for efficiency (in power, thrust, shields, weapon and weapon combo systems, everything actually) that there is no longer a single recipe and through research and testing I can find a unique combination, something that others did not find. As long as the game is still simplified, there is no need for me to join the crowds.
     
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