Power 2.1 doesn't suck.

Benevolent27 · Feb 28, 2018

Nosajimiki said:
CrystallineEntity may be the class, but you had it named DemonBorn for our fight.

Not to drag on the argument, but nope! lol. I spawned it as "CrystallineEntity" and that's the name is always had. I've never named a ship "DemonBorn". I believe I did refer to it as a "demon spawn" when I asked you if you wanted to battle it as a test, explaining that it was a horrible spaghetti ship, but the actual name of the ship was "CrystallineEntity".

But, the proof is in the pudding, right? Was I remembering wrong? Well here's some admin command magic. Note the UID of the ship contains the original name as it was spawned:

And then the "realName" is the current name of the ship:

I have never renamed the ship.

And.. Booyakasha! Have a great day! :D
[doublepost=1519826096,1519825906][/doublepost]

TheDerpGamerX said:
I've been trying to get all my ships to be vertical. I think they have an advantage, not just targeting wise, but also because the human brain tends to like turning left and right better than up and down. So if you have really good turning speed on your horizontal axis, it may be a good advantage for the pilot.

Just to note, it's not just the human brain's preference. The advantage is that turning faster allows retargeting faster.
[doublepost=1519826218][/doublepost]

Az14el said:
I doubt anywhere near as many factions were privy to that exploit as people like to imagine, i was technically in odium at this time, the only group of players i know for a fact to have used it and still wasn't exactly shared knowledge, i only learned the specifics when it was leaked myself. So yeah there was an exploit that made it economically 0 risk to spam titans all day, yet from actually playing the online side & pvping regularly at the time I sure did see a shitload more <100k ships being used (not counting that shit when its made overt through fleet spam of course).

Were a lot of people guilty? yep, most likely
Were a majority of people guilty? to me at least, obviously no, there was a massive difference in production between the few factions known to have been utilizing this and the general community no matter how sneaky they tried to be about it

The general use average was certainly still ~100k or less, if not for economical reasons then for statistical ones, they're just generally higher quality ships at any stage of competence on .199 (with the supertitan tier shp scaling exception that wasn't realistic in MP use anyway)

I think ~100k or less ships are also just more fun to pilot. I have enough resources to build probably 50m mass worth of ships, but I still fly around in a 65k ship, lol. I like that sometimes I encounter impossible odds. I like that sometimes I still win. And when I have to run away, I'm ok with that too because it makes me have to do recon and make practical decisions. I don't necessarily want to always win. I live for the challenge.

Nosajimiki · Feb 28, 2018

Az14el said:
I doubt anywhere near as many factions were privy to that exploit as people like to imagine, i was technically in odium at this time, the only group of players i know for a fact to have used it and still wasn't exactly shared knowledge, i only learned the specifics when it was leaked myself. So yeah there was an exploit that made it economically 0 risk to spam titans all day, yet from actually playing the online side & pvping regularly at the time I sure did see a shitload more <100k ships being used (not counting that shit when its made overt through fleet spam of course).

Were a lot of people guilty? yep, most likely
Were a majority of people guilty? to me at least, obviously no, there was a massive difference in production between the few factions known to have been utilizing this and the general community no matter how sneaky they tried to be about it

The general use average was certainly still ~100k or less, if not for economical reasons then for statistical ones, they're just generally higher quality ships at any stage of competence on .199 (with the supertitan tier shp scaling exception that wasn't realistic in MP use anyway)

Vaygr is the only faction I know of that was for a fact using the shipyard exploit for anything other than very minor shit like spawning in a starter ship or funding a home based. There were some other pretty egregious material exploits like the Judas exploit that were actually much more widespread, but they got quitely fixed thanks to people NOT POSTING IT ON YOUTUBE. All-in-all, I only know of 4 or 5 factions that for a fact made major use of material exploits, and they pretty much all died off before or because of exploit patches.

Also, of the factions that exploited resources, I don't know of a single one where the majority of members knew that resources were being exploited. In pretty much every case I've heard of, it's been less than 1/2 the members in the know doing it, and everyone else taking the bad rep for being associated with them.

Benevolent27 said:
Not to drag on the argument, but nope! lol. I spawned it as "CrystallineEntity" and that's the name is always had. I've never named a ship "DemonBorn". I believe I did refer to it as a "demon spawn" when I asked you if you wanted to battle it as a test, explaining that it was a horrible spaghetti ship, but the actual name of the ship was "CrystallineEntity".

But, the proof is in the pudding, right? Was I remembering wrong? Well here's some admin command magic. Note the UID of the ship contains the original name as it was spawned:
View attachment 47945

And then the "realName" is the current name of the ship:
View attachment 47946

I have never renamed the ship.

And.. Booyakasha! Have a great day! :D

Ah, well that clarifies that. Human memory can be a very finicky thing.

TheDerpGamerX said:
I've been trying to get all my ships to be vertical. I think they have an advantage, not just targeting wise, but also because the human brain tends to like turning left and right better than up and down. So if you have really good turning speed on your horizontal axis, it may be a good advantage for the pilot.

Another note beyond turning and hitting is the application this has in range control which is one area that longbois actually hold the advantage. You can generally tell what way a wide or tall ship was going to strafe; so, if you wanted to create distance, you can strafe asque of them at 90 deg, and if you wanted to close range, you match their strafe. A longboi is very difficult to garner direction from since there is no impetus to going up/down vs left/right. This meant that if you want to create range you could change direction unnoticed and gain a considerable escape vector before your opponent realizes that you've shifted directions.

Tunk · Feb 28, 2018

(post on topic, read to end, preface first)
I can't count the number of nights Comro left his girlfriend cold and alone to mine for us (we are pretty sure she starved to death some time in 2015 and he props her up on the couch occasionally).
Only to have someone come and drop multi-megatons of mass on the faction after 2 days.

I can't count the number of scouting trips I took to find several dozen med size drones, larger ships etc scattered around the void like confetti.

Eventually we got sick of it and started going Judas, which was something pretty much reported on the first day/week that update dropped but "was not a issue/working as intended/cannot replicate" until quite a few server owners rammed it down their throat that, yes the Judas problem is real.

I might kick up starmade and see if several exploits I developed/discovered/reported like a year are still in play.
For example blueprint alchemy, or relative docking tree exploits (allows literal blueprint theft, as well as several other issues).

And shipyards, bloody shipyards need to be removed and re-coded from the ground up with a QA team breathing down the devs necks fleas on a dog.

But anyway, from chats I've seen there have been a multitude of exploits and bugs come about with the power v2 update as well, which were reported in pre release.
I'm kinda scared of starting the game up at the moment because I know once I start testing its going to be a cluster fuck of things to report.
While V2.1 doesn't suck as bad as before, lets be honest at the moment it is horribly buggy, insanely in balanced right now regarding PVP (literally build titan killers the size of a pea kinda imbalanced) and bobby AI seems to have a drinking problem or is somehow fueled by vodka.

I have little hope that these issues will be resolved even within the next 5 years, because fundamentally there is something wrong with the development process allowing all this stuff to happen.
If programmers at my company released something like this to customers the lead architect would fire them on the spot.

kulbolen · Feb 28, 2018

Nosajimiki said:
le NOT POSTING IT ON YOUTUBE.

i find your capslocks offensive.

Nosajimiki · Feb 28, 2018

Well, I find releasing sensitive information that forces server admins to wipe servers causing thousands of collective honest manhours of work to be destroyed or otherwise spend dozens of hours digging through log files trying to selectively find perpetrators to be as you say "offensive", which is why I felt that statement deserved explication.

But, if said Youtuber finds my remark offensive, I'll be happy to change it to lowercase to preserve his feelings.

kulbolen · Feb 28, 2018

Nosajimiki said:
Well, I find releasing sensitive information that forces server admins to wipe servers causing thousands of collective honest manhours of work to be destroyed or otherwise spend dozens of hours digging through log files trying to selectively find perpetrators to be as you say "offensive", which is why I felt that statement deserved explication.

But, if said Youtuber finds my remark offensive, I'll be happy to change it to lowercase to preserve his feelings.

i see someones been feeding you misinformation.

feeling a bit...hostile... are we?

Nosajimiki · Feb 28, 2018

Well, it was not my intention to be hostile.

Put otherwise: I believe that if this were a closed alpha with paid play testers, then open disclosure of such issues is best, but as an open alpha in a competitive game with a volunteer player base, those kinds of bugs should be reported in private to your server admins and/or reported directly to the development team, because that helps protect server admins from unnecessary damage control, and protects the community from "fastest possible solution" based hotfixes that interrupt people from actually being able to play the game.

But, if you have a different perspective on the matter, feel free to state it.

kulbolen · Feb 28, 2018

Nosajimiki said:
Well, it was not my intention to be hostile.

Put otherwise: I believe that if this were a closed alpha with paid play testers, then open disclosure of such issues is best, but as an open alpha in a competitive game with a volunteer player base, those kinds of bugs should be reported in private to your server admins and/or reported directly to the development team, because that helps protect server admins from unnecessary damage control, and protects the community from "fastest possible solution" based hotfixes that interrupt people from actually being able to play the game.

But, if you have a different perspective on the matter, feel free to state it.

my perspective was stated back when we originally beat this topic to death.... months ago. you brought it up to be hostile. by the devs own admittance, it helped get stuff fixed.

Nosajimiki · Feb 28, 2018

"Beat this topic to death"... yes, that is why I did not feel it necessary to elaborate in my original post beyond simply punctuating my feelings on the matter... but since you felt like I was being offensive, I figured you thought it was a topic worthy of discussion.

That said: If you read my post, I did not say the problem would have been fixed just fine if the video was never made. That same video could have been submitted directly to the devs and helped them just as much without all the collateral damage or forcing admins into an urgent state of damage control. Frankly, I thought it was awesome that he did it at first too, but then when you talk to the experience it created for the server admins, it was an unnecessary hell.

Basically, they were left with 3 choices:
1 - Reset the server and take away all the hoards of resources players had honestly stockpiled.
2 - Audit the server and manually remove exploited materials and ships. (which is a lot of work)
3 - Do nothing as the total mass of resources on your server multiples 10-fold and hope people don't use it to make so many massive ships that your server runs out of disk space.

In the case of the shipyard exploits, admins were lucky that they could just switch to cash BPs before things got too out of hand, but if it were a problem that they had to wait on devs for. Most admins would have just had to wait for the patch, then go for option #1.

Scypio · Feb 28, 2018

Tunk said:
bobby AI seems to have a drinking problem or is somehow fueled by vodka.

Sorry but i've felt like this for several years with bobby now that i feel more like he started with something much stronger now.
And i should really ask where he got his cuz that's some reaaal good.

Maybe i still have the screenshots where bobby tries desperarely to shoot at something with it's only one weapon but the weapon is out of range...
Lot's of derp thing like that for years. So much that i started to understand them and work with it.

Az14el · Mar 1, 2018

someone give me the goddamn memo on the free blocks this time D:

TheDerpGamerX · Mar 2, 2018

Az14el said:
someone give me the goddamn memo on the free blocks this time D:

Honestly, exploits are really easy to find. If you think of something that might work, chances are it probably does. I mean, I can give you a hint:

Starmade doesn't seem to work properly anymore. Hell, i'm not sure if it ever did. I'd honestly Prefer if schine would take the time to fix their game. Yet again, power 2.0 is Amazingly and Regrettably broken and it is a Disgrace upon what was once a good game. it really, really Sucks, ya know?

You get what I'm saying?

Nosajimiki said:
Well, I find releasing sensitive information that forces server admins to wipe servers causing thousands of collective honest manhours of work to be destroyed or otherwise spend dozens of hours digging through log files trying to selectively find perpetrators to be as you say "offensive", which is why I felt that statement deserved explication.

But, if said Youtuber finds my remark offensive, I'll be happy to change it to lowercase to preserve his feelings.

They did report it. Legit, the only way to get Schine to actually do anything was to make a public video on it, as they would be forced to fix it so servers don't break.

Az14el · Mar 3, 2018

ditto for ion ssus, justsayin
carrot & whip method is effective

Benevolent27 · Mar 3, 2018

Nosajimiki said:
Another note beyond turning and hitting is the application this has in range control which is one area that longbois actually hold the advantage. You can generally tell what way a wide or tall ship was going to strafe; so, if you wanted to create distance, you can strafe asque of them at 90 deg, and if you wanted to close range, you match their strafe. A longboi is very difficult to garner direction from since there is no impetus to going up/down vs left/right. This meant that if you want to create range you could change direction unnoticed and gain a considerable escape vector before your opponent realizes that you've shifted directions.

Granted I haven't tested this, but I think a vertical ship can simply rotate and then use left/right to change targeting faster than a long ship will take to retarget. It then leaves the person in a better position to continue tracking the target along the left/right axis. I always align my ship so the enemy is moving from the right to the left or vice versa. But even if a long ship can retarget to another point in the same timeframe, it will then have a much harder time keeping a bead from that point forward (assuming the person is strafing, rather than doing constant shifts in movement in all directions - which in my experience is rarely the case).

Also, to note, a ship does not actually have to be pointing in the direction they wish to change their movement when performing evasion moves. The fastest way to change your vector point is always to simply move in diagonals and not even bother with turning. Since thrust is applied on each axis independently, holding LEFT + UP + FORWARD multiplies your thrust by 3, assuming you are modifying your speed on each axis. Trying to turn in the direction you wish to go and then press forward is slow. To reverse direction as fast as possible, you then press RIGHT + DOWN + BACKWARD. However, doing so will put you at an odd angle to your left/right tracking, so you have to balance your evasion with tracking and ensure you are turning to re-align your tracking axis after movements. And then you'll need to be aware of which direction you are flying to more effectively choose changes in direction based on your current rotation to effect the greatest differences in movement trajectory when needing to evade.

But just to simplify all the above. Let's say an enemy keeps changing direction back and forth along a diagonal. You're in a long ship and cannot keep up with their changes in direction. IT doesn't matter which direction they keep reversing back and forth. Fact is, you just can't keep up. But in a vertical ship, your turn speed can keep track, provided you align their movement shifts along your horizontal axis. The reason for this is that you have to take rotation into consideration. It's the 4th direction. A long ship cannot use it in conjunction with turn speed to boost retargeting speed, but a vertical ship can.

Nosajimiki · Mar 5, 2018

Benevolent27 said:
Granted I haven't tested this, but I think a vertical ship can simply rotate and then use left/right to change targeting faster than a long ship will take to retarget. It then leaves the person in a better position to continue tracking the target along the left/right axis. I always align my ship so the enemy is moving from the right to the left or vice versa. But even if a long ship can retarget to another point in the same timeframe, it will then have a much harder time keeping a bead from that point forward (assuming the person is strafing, rather than doing constant shifts in movement in all directions - which in my experience is rarely the case).

Also, to note, a ship does not actually have to be pointing in the direction they wish to change their movement when performing evasion moves. The fastest way to change your vector point is always to simply move in diagonals and not even bother with turning. Since thrust is applied on each axis independently, holding LEFT + UP + FORWARD multiplies your thrust by 3, assuming you are modifying your speed on each axis. Trying to turn in the direction you wish to go and then press forward is slow. To reverse direction as fast as possible, you then press RIGHT + DOWN + BACKWARD. However, doing so will put you at an odd angle to your left/right tracking, so you have to balance your evasion with tracking and ensure you are turning to re-align your tracking axis after movements. And then you'll need to be aware of which direction you are flying to more effectively choose changes in direction based on your current rotation to effect the greatest differences in movement trajectory when needing to evade.

But just to simplify all the above. Let's say an enemy keeps changing direction back and forth along a diagonal. You're in a long ship and cannot keep up with their changes in direction. IT doesn't matter which direction they keep reversing back and forth. Fact is, you just can't keep up. But in a vertical ship, your turn speed can keep track, provided you align their movement shifts along your horizontal axis. The reason for this is that you have to take rotation into consideration. It's the 4th direction. A long ship cannot use it in conjunction with turn speed to boost retargeting speed, but a vertical ship can.

This actually opens up a huge can of worms in the long/tall meta discussion that probably deserves it's own thread, but in short: (tall vs long) meta has a lot to do with your optimal engagement range. Under non-exploitative circumstances, Tall ships are optimal for short range ships where those turn speeds really matter, but long can be optimal for sniper ships where maintaining range is more important because they are typically less predictable. Also, you are right that rotate>turn is effective in a tall ship, but going back to the psychological component of piloting, seeing your enemy rotate a tall ship is a good way to predict his next move: much like watching a boxer take a step to brace for his next punch.
Then there is the exploitative circumstance which is were you do the thing to make a ship of any size or shape turn on a dime...
Over all, I'd still say the tall ship has more total advantages, but there are some things about long ships that make them better for certain ship roles.

Search

Power 2.1 doesn't suck.

Benevolent27

Join the Dark Side

Nosajimiki

Tunk

Who's idea was this?

kulbolen

Nosajimiki

kulbolen

Nosajimiki

kulbolen

Nosajimiki

Scypio

Az14el

Definitely not a skywanderers dev

TheDerpGamerX

Lord of Lawnmowers

Az14el

Definitely not a skywanderers dev

Benevolent27

Join the Dark Side

Nosajimiki