Power 2.1 doesn't suck.

    Az14el

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    but of course then they take mad grief because the pre-alpha, sneak preview of the rough initial update "doesn't work"
    but MT, this isn't a 'sneak preview' at all, that was true in dev builds sure, this is release, this IS the (very) rough initial update and a lot of it still really doesn't work at all

    shit like this is why we have open dev builds in the first place, they could have should have released it as such, schine isn't innocent or beyond reproach in this debacle either, no less than the the community & smd.
     
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    but MT, this isn't a 'sneak preview' at all, that was true in dev builds sure, this is release, this IS the (very) rough initial update and a lot of it still really doesn't work at all

    shit like this is why we have open dev builds in the first place, they could have should have released it as such, schine isn't innocent or beyond reproach in this debacle either, no less than the the community & smd.
    Not beyond reproach, no. It was very premature. I think they were just under a deadline, but I do hate premature releases.

    Lots of expensive ($50+) games release broke AF then shore up with patches over the next 6 to 12 months (which I hate, it didn't used to be this way, but it is a bit industry norm at this point and people constantly talking abouy other mimick games catching up only incentivizes such behavior).

    Probably they pushed it out to just keep going, knowing that defects are fairly easy to clean up over time and that real balance would only become possible after weapons anyway. Blame is unproductive, but yeah - very premature.
     
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    Valiant70

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    Probably they pushed it out to just keep going, knowing that defects are fairly easy to clean up over time and that real balance would only become possible after weapons anyway.
    I expect the way it was planned to go was:
    • Power (1 year)
    • Weapons (3 months)
    • Fixes & balancing (abut 6 months initially, plus tweaks on through beta)
    It would have made more sense to release power and weapons together, but whatever.
     
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    I expect the way it was planned to go was:
    • Power (1 year)
    • Weapons (3 months)
    • Fixes & balancing (abut 6 months initially, plus tweaks on through beta)
    It would have made more sense to release power and weapons together, but whatever.
    Agreed, almost no point doing power that obsoletes weapons without also releasing the weapons, but at the time I guess it seemed like a good idea.

    Grind those weapons out, Schine. Needed badly. 2.0 looks like it has potential. Now. We really need the rest of the system at this point.
     
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    The problem with the systems overhaul isn't so much that the systems themselves are beyond saving. Before stabilization was pretty bad, but the new fix makes it work, and with similar fixing integrity could work nicely. The main problem is that it came out at a time that completely killed any momentum the development was having. Not to mention now there's something like 150ish community built ships and a fair amount of official ships that will need fixing. It felt like it came very late, at a time when most of the talk was on populating the universe,and providing things to actually do in the game and ended up grinding work towards that to a halt. For a game that relies on a healthy community that doesn't strike me as a good move.
     
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    Power 2.1, the new power with modified stabilizer mechanics, doesn't actually suck.
    I still don't see a point in their existence. And single reactor per dock chain still creates a lot of problems and maybe even needs some workarounds for stations - which is inelegant and depending on severity of workarounds could lead to other problems.

    But overall yes - they no longer suck.
     
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    The problem with the systems overhaul isn't so much that the systems themselves are beyond saving. Before stabilization was pretty bad, but the new fix makes it work, and with similar fixing integrity could work nicely. The main problem is that it came out at a time that completely killed any momentum the development was having. Not to mention now there's something like 150ish community built ships and a fair amount of official ships that will need fixing. It felt like it came very late, at a time when most of the talk was on populating the universe,and providing things to actually do in the game and ended up grinding work towards that to a halt. For a game that relies on a healthy community that doesn't strike me as a good move.
    I think the really big mistake was putting off 2.0 as long as they did, because you are absolutely spot on correct. It felt really late.

    The community fleets issue are a particularly painful result. Such a massive drive of community contibution should have been reserved for after 2.0 was complete. It would have been a brilliant way to replenish community content. I think that in putting off what they knew would be an inevitable, extended suckfest, they actually caused a lot of additional collateral damage to morale.

    I don't think there was a real choice to not do a ground up power revision, the choice was to not do it earlier, and I think that the wrong decision was made. Long ago.
     
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    Power 2.1, the new power with modified stabilizer mechanics, doesn't actually suck.
    Your posilutely absatively correct Power 2.0 doesn't suck, in fact nothing actually sucks, the correct term is 'entrains'.
    I still don't see a point in their existence. And single reactor per dock chain still creates a lot of problems and maybe even needs some workarounds for stations - which is inelegant and depending on severity of workarounds could lead to other problems.
    This is causing me all sorts of problems with what I would like to build.
    I think the really big mistake was putting off 2.0 as long as they did, because you are absolutely spot on correct. It felt really late.

    The community fleets issue are a particularly painful result. Such a massive drive of community contibution should have been reserved for after 2.0 was complete. It would have been a brilliant way to replenish community content. I think that in putting off what they knew would be an inevitable, extended suckfest, they actually caused a lot of additional collateral damage to morale.

    I don't think there was a real choice to not do a ground up power revision, the choice was to not do it earlier, and I think that the wrong decision was made. Long ago.
    If it took them that long to decide that power 1.0 was un-fixable and needed to be replaced, I am not looking forward to the long wait for them to inevitably come to same conclusion for power 2.0.
     
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    I am not looking forward to the long wait for them to inevitably come to same conclusion for power 2.0.
    I doubt any such thing will happen. Short term, I expect to see integrity get some changes. Long term, I'd look for a chamber rework that would allow for multiple reactors, and possibly some more changes to stabilizers.
     
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    , I am not looking forward to the long wait for them to inevitably come to same conclusion for power 2.0.
    You think it's inevitable? You know that 1.0 was a first-attempt to deploy power by a developer working on his first game, right?

    A second iteration designed after >5 years of playtesting is a far, far different scenario. In that context, 'inevitable' seems a pretty massive leap, and based on some fundamental assumptions like that they won't go Beta over the next 5 years... and you can argue that, but it's far from something that can be conclusively predicted.
    [doublepost=1519093296,1519092901][/doublepost]
    It is the fact that schine wont listen to any of our ideas.
    Fact?

    Schine have listened to tons of player ideas. They've implemented several as well. That is fact.

    Do you mean they won't listen to 'all' of our ideas?
     
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    Fact : I still can't build conventionnal vertical ship that doesn't have a weak spot, aka stabilization stream, it's whole lengh. And I still can't shield my whole ship using conventionnal building mechanics because bubble shields. Thus vertical ships are completely useless compared to any more conventionnal ones.

    Power 2.1 or whatever you wanna call it killed my fun in this game by killing vertical ships. And i don't feel like using all of the things i know to take care of the stream and shitty mechanics this update added to only have fun building what i like the most.

    I'm not coming here as a rper or a pvper no i'm here as a builder and i can't build anything i like without feeling it is a complete waste of time.
     

    alterintel

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    The problem isnt a lack of good ideas to fix integrity. It is the fact that schine wont listen to any of our ideas.
    Schine have listened to tons of player ideas. They've implemented several as well. That is fact.

    Do you mean they won't listen to 'all' of our ideas?
    Schine does listen.
    Schine does use your ideas to help inspire their fixes.
    Schine does not reply because when they do they are attacked mercilessly by trolls.

    Hence new forum moderation management and rules.
    Hopefully now that the toxic environment has cleared, you will start to see more Schine replies. Especially to non-confrontational questions.

    On a more "On Topic" note.
    I've been playing around with refitting my Serenity to Power 2.1 . I figured it's a good one to start with since it doesn't have any weapons and therefore wouldn't need to be re-fitted again once the weapon update comes out. But then I realized I kind of need to know weapon stuff to see how well the shields and other system will hold up when under fire. I guess we'll see.

    On a side side note: It's really hard not to fill every nook and cranny with some kind of system. I had to force my self to make my chambers into nice 6 sided rectangle shapes. It's going to take some getting used to. That's for sure.
     
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    building creativity has taken a major hit, and meta fighting hasnt. (unless you count broken combat as a meta nerf lmao)

    take away from that what you want.
     
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    Fact : I still can't build conventionnal vertical ship that doesn't have a weak spot, aka stabilization stream, it's whole lengh. And I still can't shield my whole ship using conventionnal building mechanics because bubble shields. Thus vertical ships are completely useless compared to any more conventionnal ones.

    Power 2.1 or whatever you wanna call it killed my fun in this game by killing vertical ships. And i don't feel like using all of the things i know to take care of the stream and shitty mechanics this update added to only have fun building what i like the most.

    I'm not coming here as a rper or a pvper no i'm here as a builder and i can't build anything i like without feeling it is a complete waste of time.
    I feel that; tallboys are my go-to as well these days.

    I think one of the deepest changes to the game in 2.0 has been removal of players' ability to build ships with no weakness.

    Reactors, stabs, streams, bubble shields, regen delay - literally all of these have in common that they revolve around forcing ships to have vulnerabilities more like real vehicles.

    You put enough shots through any real vehicle, craft or vessel and it will stop working. In 1.0 there was a constant issue of "Block Destruction," remember that? People talked about it all the time; weapon sets were built around this unrealistic thing where the only way to kill ships was to erase blocks until enough random blocks died that the ship HP went under and it magically overheated (because if I stripped enough exterior panels an seat cushions from a car it would "overheat"??).

    There were lots of complaints about that, remember? People bitched about how tedious combat was, how the whole weapon meta was based on block destruction, and about how uncompelling and unrealistic that felt.

    Well, now that is fixed. We can't really fight until the weapons are released, but we can be pretty sure at this point that the meta under weapons 3.0 won't have a ton to do with mass erasing of blocks just for the sake of racking up HP damage. All ships will be realistically vulnerable.

    Can a solo 1k fighter get at that stream on a 50k destroyer? Not bloody likely - the new vulnerabilities don't make anyone that insanely weak unless they are doing it wrong -but could a top-end 20k frigate, well flown and lucky on a good day? Why not, as long as it's not easy? For both sport and realism, that is probably as it should be.

    To those who feel that "Schine never listens," I say: Be careful what you wish for!

    2.0 is a response. Not a simple update just trying to "nerf meta-warriors" (though maybe some people can only imagine it as all about them; as if any game is without meta-tactics) and 'failing,' it is addressing a whole slew of common complaints and underlying system issues from 1.0. There is a big picture taking shape here.

    Should we go back to a meta of invincishields and erasing ships block by block until "50%" (because 'overheat')? I would rather press forward myself, I very much like the indicators of where this is going once weapon function is restored and we see real armor in-game, it looks like to be much more compelling by far.
     
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    Can a solo 1k fighter get at that stream on a 50k destroyer?
    I can. Especially if i am fighting a vertical ship. So if you're fine with what the power system is and what it encourage then good for you but i'm not.
     
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    I can. Especially if i am fighting a vertical ship. So if you're fine with what the power system is and what it encourage then good for you but i'm not.
    I would not be fine with a solo fighter killing a combat ship 50 times its size (unless the larger ship was an absolutely terrible noobfest and piloted accordingly) in a system with functional weapons and defenses.

    I am fully confident that that is neither the goal nor final result of the power system though.

    Do you believe that because weapons are currently broken by the new power (until the pending weapons update) that is the intended result? A solo 1k ship kill a 50k ship of roughly comparable quality? Does that seem like a realistic goal that real human beings would be trying to implement?
     
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    A solo 1k ship kill a 50k ship of roughly comparable quality?
    Theoretically it is now possible as shields do not recharge under fire.

    Reactors, stabs, streams, bubble shields, regen delay - literally all of these have in common that they revolve around forcing ships to have vulnerabilities more like real vehicles.

    You put enough shots through any real vehicle, craft or vessel and it will stop working. In 1.0 there was a constant issue of "Block Destruction," remember that? People talked about it all the time; weapon sets were built around this unrealistic thing where the only way to kill ships was to erase blocks until enough random blocks died that the ship HP went under and it magically overheated (because if I stripped enough exterior panels an seat cushions from a car it would "overheat"??).

    There were lots of complaints about that, remember? People bitched about how tedious combat was, how the whole weapon meta was based on block destruction, and about how uncompelling and unrealistic that felt.

    Well, now that is fixed. We can't really fight until the weapons are released, but we can be pretty sure at this point that the meta under weapons 3.0 won't have a ton to do with mass erasing of blocks just for the sake of racking up HP damage. All ships will be realistically vulnerable.
    And why do you need stabilisers and those purple streams for that? Reactors and systems themselves would have more than sufficed.
     
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    Theoretically it is now possible as shields do not recharge under fire.
    I am aware.

    Do you believe that is the intended result Schine is designing for? Does that seem realistic? Or is it more likely that the current situation is a direct effect of having new power & shield systems without matching updates to armor and weapons, and turrets that are no longer working properly at all times for the same reason?

    If it's the latter, I get the frustration, but how can that possibly be construed as a characteristic of the power system? Wouldn't that make such an extreme example a function of the current being in a transitional period, not a 'feature' of Power 2.1?

    I'm glad Scypio shared his feelings on this specific situation that is ruining his enjoyment, because (not to contradict his own account of himself, but just to relate my reading) it further confirms to me that the real problem most people are having right now is the transition itself. Not the new systems. Once Weapons are released and we have a few months to work with Schine on balancing them, I believe that most of the players currently hating life because of the changes will be very pleased with the end result.
     
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    And why do you need stabilisers and those purple streams for that? Reactors and systems themselves would have more than sufficed.
    stabilisers = limit power to size ratio (I don't know why, maybe encourage interior). they put the "depth" of the power system here : you have to choose if you put stabilisers at optimal distance or use more stabilisers (more mass) but have a smaller ship
    purple stream = counter island ships
    integrity = counter spaghetti ships