Necessary Integrity Fixes

    Valiant70

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    Two game-breaking problems:
    1. Cube-group meta. Since having more than 0 integrity creates an additional "buffer" against integrity explosions, cube shaped system groups (NOT cube shaped ships) are always the most durable. This limits creative freedom.
    2. Lag. Recalculating integrity and spawning explosions when things get shot up is laggy. EDIT: It's really laggy.
    Solutions:
    1. Integrity value must not be recalculated when blocks are shot out. Recalculate only during building and on ship reboot.
    2. Replace integrity explosions with a system-group HP pool. The system loses functionality as the pool decreases. Negative integrity causes the group to lose more HP when a block is destroyed. (This also makes integrity more effective at killing spaghetti fast.)
     
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    Yus!
    System by system functionality would be amazing.

    On top of that, I don't think that weapon groups should split into multiple outputs if they get shot in half.

    Damaged system groups could have various effects applied depending on how much %hp they have left (with integrity lowering the ammount of damage needed to reach these thesholds/takes more hp damage.

    E.g system group is completly disabled at 20% hp, decreassed effciencey at 60% etc.
     

    Maramonster

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    This is my main sticking point with how things are right now, thanks to multiple stabilizer groups it's at least possible to 'work around' it and fit it into a wider range of ships. Integrity making cubes for systems the way to go makes them a lot harder to fit. However, the calculation cost of it is also bogging down things a lot. Larger miners can take quite a while to calculate. I've had to sit and watch while it figures it all out.
     
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    I like the "idea" of systems losing integrity as they take damage, but it pushes cubes in combat ships for sure. Not calculating integrity on damage is a very good functional solution, but I keep feeling like there should be a way to keep dynamic integrity but de-incentivize full-on cube building. There may not be though.

    What if... what if there was simply an integrity cap?

    Then a 5x5x5 cube would be about as stable as a 3x3x15 rod. Damage would destabilize the rod more, but the cube would also be more likely in all to be one-shotted due to having all its assets in one place and not as spread out. That probably isn't a complete solution in itself, but helps move towards more balance without fundamentally changing the mechanic.

    All else failing, stopping combat recalc might be the practical solution. It would definitely do the job.
     
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    right now integ is causing MASSIVE lag if you engage a decent sized low integ ship and damage it. the chain explosions are harsh.
    Explosions definitely need nerfing. Damaging a low integrity component shouldn't cause a blast every time. It should be like 5% or 15% chance or something so occasionally there would be a critical failure, but not a cascade every time.

    Just because shit can blow up doesn't mean it should every time.
     

    Valiant70

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    What if... what if there was simply an integrity cap?
    Removing the ability to make a "buffer" of extra integrity would fix the cube-system meta, but would not alleviate lag from integrity recalculations or explosions.

    Also, Necessary Change #2 causes spaghetti monsters to die MUCH faster. Explosions just don't do much to them, so it takes a while for them to burn away. This has been covered in detail by other players.

    Just because shit can blow up doesn't mean it should every time.
    The explosions are a waste of processing power. The systems just need to lose performance. You built a sane ship that looks like a ship? I can blow up half your shields and they still sort of work. You built a spaghetti monster? As soon as I shoot a couple of blocks out, you're worse off than the guy who lost half his blocks.
     
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    While spaghetti is theoreticaly an issue, I nor most players have ever built nor encoutered one.
    Sure it shouldn't be encouraged, but neither should the integrity system be soley balanced around it.
     
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    Valiant70

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    While spaghetti is theoreticaly an issue, I nor most players have ever built nor encoutered one.
    Sure it shouldn't be encouraged, but neither should the integrity system be soley balanced around it.
    If done right, spaghetti will get totally shafted while sane designs and even organic shapes will be left alone.
     
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    If done right, spaghetti will get totally shafted while sane designs and even organic shapes will be left alone.
    I think that integrity should only be applied to power blocks alone.. It would prevent the spaghetti issue while pleasing everyone else on top of being simple. Apply Valiant's idea on top of it to reduce recalculations as well...

    I also wish that they would get all of the other features that were working prior to the power update working again while we wait several months for these future weapons and universe updates.

    But have a sinking feeling that they won't since not a single patch to fix any of it has been released in over a month now. Perhaps someone knows or read otherwise?

    Perhaps they are just going to do it all in one go, everything else be damned.. But if that is the case.. They should have just gone that route with everything in working order instead of releasing new power at all yet. I mean the only reason for them to release it in this state is to give us something to playtest at this point. But it should have been much further refined if you ask me, may have even saved face from all of the drama that has occured.
     
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    While spaghetti is theoreticaly an issue, I nor most players have ever built nor encoutered one.
    Sure it shouldn't be encouraged, but neither should the integrity system be solely balanced around it.
    Spaghetti comes in a wide range of variants from low density ships all the way to the retarded levels of such ships as the "Fair-and-Balanced", and not all players agree on where that threshold is. I've personally faced at least 3 true spaghettis (single wide string systems significantly spaced out), plus several similar ships designed out of 3-5 block strands. Also, many players use spaghetti tactics that they do a good job of hiding. For example, the MagicTech 65k destroyer looks like a solid ship, but almost all the systems where actual long skinny strands running along the flanks so that any shot strong enough to break the docked armor that landed center mass would just pass through causing very little harm. The Dominion also had that 2k wide halo ship that capitalized on spaghetti mechanics which was actually fairly strong despite being VERY poorly designed in many other respects. Then there are ships like the Licorp Baal Berith that are not true spaghetti, so you can still land hits just fine, but they are so low density that everything just over-pens it or wastes a bunch of explosive potential on thin air.

    It is likely you did not attract enough attention to make ppl feel justified in sending spaghetti your way, but in general, any player who won a few fights in a row could pretty much expect someone to throw a revenge spaghetti their way.

    The biggest problem with spaghetti was not that it was powerful, but that it was OP and VERY easy for any noob to make. Docked armor, by contrast, took a lot more patience, technical understanding, experimentation, and time to implement well; so, even though everyone knew about it, most people didn't know all the tricks necessary to make a particularly better ship with it. Even if you know the idea behind it, there were at least 13 different tricks involved it making it better than just "make the enemy hit my docka", so even if some new player came along and said, "I'm gonna go shank some people with a docked armor ship", chances are they'd be sorely disappointed to find out that what they have is nothing compared to the docked armor made by more seasoned builders.

    There is also the matter of scale of advantage. The high end meta ships could stack 20-30 best building practices and other exploits to make a ship that could generally hit like ships 3-10 times their mass. A spaghetti ship, build with very limited understand of the game could face those same meta ships at 10 times THEIR mass.

    ... So yeah... I'd say they are actually a very toxic element and the sole reason why the game needed an integrity element to begin with.
    [doublepost=1519318660,1519318529][/doublepost]Also, this OP is very similar to How to fix Integrity - Yeay Math Again!, excpet it does not address the additional concern of integrity currently not scalling well with smaller ships.
     

    OfficialCoding

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    Two game-breaking problems:
    1. Cube-group meta. Since having more than 0 integrity creates an additional "buffer" against integrity explosions, cube shaped system groups (NOT cube shaped ships) are always the most durable. This limits creative freedom.
    2. Lag. Recalculating integrity and spawning explosions when things get shot up is laggy. EDIT: It's really laggy.
    Solutions:
    1. Integrity value must not be recalculated when blocks are shot out. Recalculate only during building and on ship reboot.
    2. Replace integrity explosions with a system-group HP pool. The system loses functionality as the pool decreases. Negative integrity causes the group to lose more HP when a block is destroyed. (This also makes integrity more effective at killing spaghetti fast.)
    Yes and no. Yes, integrity should only be recalculated upon rebuting. No, because i like spaghetti and I'm sure a lot of people do too.