I found a very interesting conversation today

    MrFURB

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    It's definitely trying, what with all the half features and hinted gameplay everywhere... But at this point 'the game is dead' is a line I have heard consistently in every lull in updates since Schema stopped releasing fourteen and three quarters versions a day and started tackling more complicated features.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with the notion. I see the player counts and feel the general mood of the more grumpish members. I just think that 'the game is dying' can be read of in a similar way to, say, an environmentalist activist saying 'the Earth is dying.' We know it's getting there and it's a bad thing but there is still a loooong time between dying and dead. There is a lot of opportunity for change in that time. Maybe for better. Maybe for worse. Who knows unless we try.

    But I still rate the game higher in it's chances of being what I'm personally looking for than anything else I've seen so far.
     

    Edymnion

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    It's definitely trying, what with all the half features and hinted gameplay everywhere... But at this point 'the game is dead' is a line I have heard consistently in every lull in updates since Schema stopped releasing fourteen and three quarters versions a day and started tackling more complicated features.
    Thats the rub. Yes, there is a lull in new features right now because they openly admit they are making massive changes to things. Changes so big they have to be made before anything else because everything else is going to use them.

    People throw out how long the game has been in development, while conveniently forgetting that most of that time it was basically one guy in his garage after work building the thing.

    Game development is a long, arduous thing. Just because we don't get to see behind the curtain doesn't mean there is nothing going on behind that curtain.

    If anything, the whole power replacement thing probably taught Schine a lesson, for good or for ill, don't tell the players what they're doing because they're just gonna knee jerk it into the ground without even the semblance of stopping to actually discuss it.
     
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    If anything, the whole power replacement thing probably taught Schine a lesson, for good or for ill, don't tell the players what they're doing because they're just gonna knee jerk it into the ground without even the semblance of stopping to actually discuss it.
    I don't think so. Many dudes who were against that power change explained their opinion, and quite often their opinion nailed some real problems of that overhaul.
     
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    Schema said in an interview about two years ago, that the game was not more than an engine demo. It still is. At the same time Benchs list was a little more than just a wishlist.
    This is why a few months ago I asked about how easily Starmade could be plugged into another game. It would make a brilliant engine for Ship Design & Tactical Phase within a larger, map-based RTS or 4X game if the code is accessible enough for other programs to easily call & read. The 3D model exporting supports this very well.

    It is a great engine, but on its own is un-compelling because it's just a sandbox to experiment with the engine. I think the real money for Schine is in finding a partnership with someone developing a space RTS/4X and is looking for a solution to installing a tactical phase engine that integrates naturally with ship design, etc. They'd need tech-tree capability, but it's close to ready for use in something like that and personally I would love something like MOO or Stellaris with a Starmade combat phase using ships designed in SM creative; the 3D models directly from the ships can easily be used during the rest of the game. It seems like a great fit.
     
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    This is why a few months ago I asked about how easily Starmade could be plugged into another game. It would make a brilliant engine for Ship Design & Tactical Phase within a larger, map-based RTS or 4X game if the code is accessible enough for other programs to easily call & read. The 3D model exporting supports this very well.

    It is a great engine, but on its own is un-compelling because it's just a sandbox to experiment with the engine. I think the real money for Schine is in finding a partnership with someone developing a space RTS/4X and is looking for a solution to installing a tactical phase engine that integrates naturally with ship design, etc. They'd need tech-tree capability, but it's close to ready for use in something like that and personally I would love something like MOO or Stellaris with a Starmade combat phase using ships designed in SM creative; the 3D models directly from the ships can easily be used during the rest of the game. It seems like a great fit.
    I just wish we had a modding community in SM akin to that found in SOASE.. If we did we would likely have something like that already.
     
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    Having listened to the whole thing, I really don't agree with several of the complaints.

    Heat-seekers target and frequently destroy DEs means something is wrong with SM? That is nonsense, IMO, because that's exactly what I'd want my heat-seekers to do. This feels very much like one of those complaints coming from a position of players wanting their personal space-whip to be an immortal entity like a WoW character or something rather than something constructed in a shipyard that can be repaired or rebuilt.

    Schine proposed a major feature overhaul release and the majority response from the community was "please clean up the existing problems first." Now it's a problem that they've spent the past few months cleaning up. I have no problem with it.

    I'm tired of hearing "I've invested X-hundred hours in building stuff and have to rebuild it now, boo!" because beyond SM being alpha, it's digital. It's a game. It's not real. Expecting digital constructs to stand the march of time is absurd. Telling the devs to restrict their efforts at improvement to ideas that don't land grit in your panties is short-sighted and selfish.

    One aspect of the critique I did very much agree with was that while hiring more coders would put timeline pressure on Schine, Schine actually already is under timeline pressure from the reality of their fan base and public reputation. They can choose not to internalize that pressure and willfully ignore it, but the final outcome will be not better than internalizing the pressure with more funding and another coder or two and not meeting the set development goals. Potentially worse, because currently instead of a concretized dev timeline, they have an abstract cloud of vague expectations across the entire spectrum of possible game outcomes that they can never properly fulfill. The pressure is already there, the clock has been ticking this whole time - in 5 or 10 more years something new will have largely obsoleted voxels.

    The current approach feels like trying to attain a goal of having a pure sandbox/engine that is also a playable, engaging game. I'm not even sure those two are compatible. That feeling of trying to do it all in one is further reinforced by the game's lack of Modes despite the never-ending conflicts between PvE, PvP, and RP/Deco focused players. I love and appreciate shooting for the high mark, but I think that there might be more practical ways to doing that.

    Also the updates to decorative aspects of blocks gives a very strong impression that what we have now is something very close to the end product, because it's unusual to paint & polish an engine itself. For good cause. We usually reserve paint & polish for near the end of a development process in material production as well (cars, toys, etc). It's certainly not something typical for an alpha-phase prototype. Except recently, for a growing class of indie games on Steam.

    It seems like it should be possible to fork development and could even result in better funding right off the bat if done right, without forcing any distortion of the stated long-term development goals. Schema could isolate the core sandbox "kernel" and continue developing it under the current philosophy, and another (subsidiary) entity could take the SM engine from its current position and move to fast-track it to post-beta within 18-24 months as an actual *game* - not sandbox. That is to say, it may be time to use this engine for something. The sandbox/engine (here) would still be vital and growing, but having an actual playable option would allow Schines currently sizeable fan base to get their actual play fix on a finished version of a game built on this engine (going by a different name and under different colors, obviously). It would literally be two very different games at that point, and could easily be sold separately (perhaps with a package discount). Then in two or three years you push out another finished version.

    This is what most companies do when they have a good engine.

    They don't just put the engine out there for people to sandbox in; they use it to publish a series of games based on their proprietary engine and even sell rights to use the engine to other development companies in time. Engines themselves are perpetually in a state of development, publishing a finished game based on them doesn't preclude continuing to develop the engine.

    Schine has a good engine here.

    I would love to see a complete end to any paint & polish updates (this affects someone's RL job, and I apologize) in Starmade, and a push to stabilize the engine as much as possible as is, and use it to publish a game within 18 months featuring plentiful paint and polish on that side. Then in 2-3 years when the engine itself (i.e. Starmade) has been fitted with new features, a new game based on it can be fastracked. No need to "shit or get off the pot," but maybe look at building a second toilet...
     
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    i would not overvalue the players playing values - yes maybe people tend to not want to paly untill changes are out but they are for sure lurking and will reactivate when the changes get announced with some mechanics and such. noone really dedicated to the game is going to drop it in the long run except something really stupid happens. it is just people do not like to deal with uncertainty. well at least m guess so the game is not dying it just shows a little deep breath before it advances to new awesome.
     
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    This is why a few months ago I asked about how easily Starmade could be plugged into another game. It would make a brilliant engine for Ship Design & Tactical Phase within a larger, map-based RTS or 4X game if the code is accessible enough for other programs to easily call & read. The 3D model exporting supports this very well.

    It is a great engine, but on its own is un-compelling because it's just a sandbox to experiment with the engine. I think the real money for Schine is in finding a partnership with someone developing a space RTS/4X and is looking for a solution to installing a tactical phase engine that integrates naturally with ship design, etc. They'd need tech-tree capability, but it's close to ready for use in something like that and personally I would love something like MOO or Stellaris with a Starmade combat phase using ships designed in SM creative; the 3D models directly from the ships can easily be used during the rest of the game. It seems like a great fit.
    I've been seeing the RTS possibilities in this game for quite a while now. I saw that potential when I discovered that the AI is actually pretty decent (nothing like Space Engineers "AI"), and it became even more prevalent with their NPC faction update. With 4 NPC factions, I could see players on a server splitting up and each "joining" an NPC faction and attempting to wipe-out the other 3.

    Why make the objective wiping out the NPC factions? Gameplay would revolve around wiping out or protecting bases that the players themselves can't rebuild for the factions (or ideally couldn't), thus serving as the "health bar" of their team. As it stands right now, pvp needs a "why" other than evenly matched dogfights and AFK raids. If the factions each started with a great deal of defenses and sizable fleets and could continue to grow, then players would have to rely on Fleet AI to launch big enough attacks to have an effect. You would have a reason for grinding resources and building ships in your shipyard, real conquest!

    Then when there is only one faction left standing on a server, announce a winner and re-set.

    Some SERIOUSLY SLICK content could come up if that is the direction the game goes in. Ships for players to find and reverse-engineer, hidden crafting recipies that have to be found on derelict stations or wrecked pirate ships, being able to provide resources to the NPC faction so that they can recover from the latest attack. This would be some QUALITY GAMEPLAY.
     
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    I've been seeing the RTS possibilities in this game for quite a while now. I saw that potential when I discovered that the AI is actually pretty decent (nothing like Space Engineers "AI"), and it became even more prevalent with their NPC faction update. With 4 NPC factions, I could see players on a server splitting up and each "joining" an NPC faction and attempting to wipe-out the other 3.

    Why make the objective wiping out the NPC factions? Gameplay would revolve around wiping out or protecting bases that the players themselves can't rebuild for the factions (or ideally couldn't), thus serving as the "health bar" of their team. As it stands right now, pvp needs a "why" other than evenly matched dogfights and AFK raids. If the factions each started with a great deal of defenses and sizable fleets and could continue to grow, then players would have to rely on Fleet AI to launch big enough attacks to have an effect. You would have a reason for grinding resources and building ships in your shipyard, real conquest!

    Then when there is only one faction left standing on a server, announce a winner and re-set.

    Some SERIOUSLY SLICK content could come up if that is the direction the game goes in. Ships for players to find and reverse-engineer, hidden crafting recipies that have to be found on derelict stations or wrecked pirate ships, being able to provide resources to the NPC faction so that they can recover from the latest attack. This would be some QUALITY GAMEPLAY.
    I love the idea of a faction's health being related to the number of bases they hold instead of being tied to the superfluous currency faction points. This could add some interesting game play if there were significant bonuses to having more bases, it would also add tactical incentives to take and defend territory. For example: A base, not the home base but any other base, in a claimed sector would have a refining bonus but only for the kinds of minerals found in that territory. i.e. systems that only contain parsen, teckt, hylat would have refining bonus for parseen, teckt, hylat. This would encourage shipping of materials from high production regions to the home base where ships would and parts would be manufactured. Thus systems with more kinds of asteroids would be more valuable, giving them strategic advantages. Maybe owning enough bases would then provide manufacturing bonuses for parts. This would give players the incentive to compound mining, refining, and manufacturing bonuses. It's not perfect but I could see this being refined. This should be brainstormed.

    Suggestion thread created :Changes to Faction Mechanics and Economy
     
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    I love the idea of a faction's health being related to the number of bases they hold instead of being tied to the superfluous currency faction points. This could add some interesting game play if there were significant bonuses to having more bases, it would also add tactical incentives to take and defend territory. For example: A base, not the home base but any other base, in a claimed sector would have a refining bonus but only for the kinds of minerals found in that territory. i.e. systems that only contain parsen, teckt, hylat would have refining bonus for parseen, teckt, hylat. This would encourage shipping of materials from high production regions to the home base where ships would and parts would be manufactured. Thus systems with more kinds of asteroids would be more valuable, giving them strategic advantages. Maybe owning enough bases would then provide manufacturing bonuses for parts. This would give players the incentive to compound mining, refining, and manufacturing bonuses. It's not perfect but I could see this being refined. This should be brainstormed.
    Started a new thread in the suggestions area for this discussion!
     
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    Calhoun

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    I would love to see a complete end to any paint & polish updates (this affects someone's RL job, and I apologize) in Starmade, and a push to stabilize the engine as much as possible as is, and use it to publish a game within 18 months featuring plentiful paint and polish on that side.
    Kupu does the textures, but he is not a programmer. Taking him off textures is not going to increase the amount of work put into the core game, it's just going to slow down the texture updates.

    And frankly, He's doing a really good job.
     

    DukeofRealms

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    One aspect of the critique I did very much agree with was that while hiring more coders would put timeline pressure on Schine, Schine actually already is under timeline pressure from the reality of their fan base and public reputation. They can choose not to internalize that pressure and willfully ignore it, but the final outcome will be not better than internalizing the pressure with more funding and another coder or two and not meeting the set development goals. Potentially worse, because currently instead of a concretized dev timeline, they have an abstract cloud of vague expectations across the entire spectrum of possible game outcomes that they can never properly fulfill. The pressure is already there, the clock has been ticking this whole time - in 5 or 10 more years something new will have largely obsoleted voxels.
    As I've gone over in the past, development isn't as simple as throwing more developers at a project. Ignoring all the other host of issues, each developer added takes a heavy time and money investment to become useful. Additionally, the larger a development team, the larger the infrastructure needed to support it. It doesn't scale linearly. As of right now, we are already at the maximum capacity for developers that we can handle on StarMade. Hiring lots of developers is a good way to say goodbye to StarMade and Schine as a company, we would be running ourselves into the ground. We've had a developer in training for the past two months now (unannounced) and we've had other developers work with us before, as well as some who did not work out and were never announced. It takes a substantial initial investment from us.

    I mentioned we would develop for five more years if that's what we needed to do, that's far beyond what we would expect. Two years would be a more reasonable expectation for a full release, and beta release somewhere in the middle. But again, we won't have a good enough idea to make internal estimations until the universe update is finished.


    It seems like it should be possible to fork development and could even result in better funding right off the bat if done right, without forcing any distortion of the stated long-term development goals. Schema could isolate the core sandbox "kernel" and continue developing it under the current philosophy, and another (subsidiary) entity could take the SM engine from its current position and move to fast-track it to post-beta within 18-24 months as an actual *game* - not sandbox. That is to say, it may be time to use this engine for something. The sandbox/engine (here) would still be vital and growing, but having an actual playable option would allow Schines currently sizeable fan base to get their actual play fix on a finished version of a game built on this engine (going by a different name and under different colors, obviously). It would literally be two very different games at that point, and could easily be sold separately (perhaps with a package discount). Then in two or three years you push out another finished version.

    This is what most companies do when they have a good engine.
    This is not what most companies do. Developing a commercial engine is a lot of work and money, it needs to be in a state where other developers can utilise it, with little to no help from the creator. This means fairly clean and robust code, plus extensive documentation. In-house engines are not designed with this in mind. Often, they are designed for very narrow purposes (as in the case of the Schine Engine). It's not as simple as handing off or "forking" development, we're not using a commercial or even an open source engine here. For someone else to utilise it, we'd need to spend a ton of time and money (that we do not have) to either get it in a state where any competent developer could use it relatively quickly, or, send our existing developers to teach new ones how to use it.

    There's a good reason why companies that develop commercial game engines are multi-million dollar AAA development companies.

    Also the updates to decorative aspects of blocks gives a very strong impression that what we have now is something very close to the end product, because it's unusual to paint & polish an engine itself. For good cause. We usually reserve paint & polish for near the end of a development process in material production as well (cars, toys, etc). It's certainly not something typical for an alpha-phase prototype. Except recently, for a growing class of indie games on Steam.
    We are, in terms of framework, very, very close to completion. To a player, it might not seem that way, but from a development standpoint, we've covered most of the ground, we have a few large hills to cross yet, after that we hit beta. Until very recently, we did not have a good idea of when we could expect to reach beta, now that we're at the later stages, we know when we'll have a very good idea.

    I would love to see a complete end to any paint & polish updates (this affects someone's RL job, and I apologize) in Starmade, and a push to stabilize the engine as much as possible as is, and use it to publish a game within 18 months featuring plentiful paint and polish on that side. Then in 2-3 years when the engine itself (i.e. Starmade) has been fitted with new features, a new game based on it can be fastracked. No need to "shit or get off the pot," but maybe look at building a second toilet...
    As I mentioned before, we have as many developers as we can support, right now. I assume you're talking about textures, 3D and other in-game art. This work does not detract from development. A job for art, does not mean one less job for development. Texturing, music, modelling, all take time to complete. We will be doing all these things eventually, so it makes very little sense to delay them.

    We cover as much ground as we possibly can with the resources we have. Changing the configuration of that, or adding onto it, will not speed things up. Creating a game is a complicated process, team structure is an important part of that process, and it's not easy to form. From a consumer perspective, it might seem easy on the outside. However, a lot of thought goes into how teams are formed and how to tackle a development process.
     
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    As I've gone over in the past, development isn't as simple as throwing more developers at a project. Ignoring all the other host of issues, each developer added takes a heavy time and money investment to become useful. Additionally, the larger a development team, the larger the infrastructure needed to support it. It doesn't scale linearly. As of right now, we are already at the maximum capacity for developers that we can handle on StarMade. Hiring lots of developers is a good way to say goodbye to StarMade and Schine as a company, we would be running ourselves into the ground. We've had a developer in training for the past two months now (unannounced) and we've had other developers work with us before, as well as some who did not work out and were never announced. It takes a substantial initial investment from us.

    I mentioned we would develop for five more years if that's what we needed to do, that's far beyond what we would expect. Two years would be a more reasonable expectation for a full release, and beta release somewhere in the middle. But again, we won't have a good enough idea to make internal estimations until the universe update is finished.




    This is not what most companies do. Developing a commercial engine is a lot of work and money, it needs to be in a state where other developers can utilise it, with little to no help from the creator. This means fairly clean and robust code, plus extensive documentation. In-house engines are not designed with this in mind. Often, they are designed for very narrow purposes (as in the case of the Schine Engine). It's not as simple as handing off or "forking" development, we're not using a commercial or even an open source engine here. For someone else to utilise it, we'd need to spend a ton of time and money (that we do not have) to either get it in a state where any competent developer could use it relatively quickly, or, send our existing developers to teach new ones how to use it.

    There's a good reason why companies that develop commercial game engines are multi-million dollar AAA development companies.



    We are, in terms of framework, very, very close to completion. To a player, it might not seem that way, but from a development standpoint, we've covered most of the ground, we have a few large hills to cross yet, after that we hit beta. Until very recently, we did not have a good idea of when we could expect to reach beta, now that we're at the later stages, we know when we'll have a very good idea.



    As I mentioned before, we have as many developers as we can support, right now. I assume you're talking about textures, 3D and other in-game art. This work does not detract from development. A job for art, does not mean one less job for development. Texturing, music, modelling, all take time to complete. We will be doing all these things eventually, so it makes very little sense to delay them.

    We cover as much ground as we possibly can with the resources we have. Changing the configuration of that, or adding onto it, will not speed things up. Creating a game is a complicated process, team structure is an important part of that process, and it's not easy to form. From a consumer perspective, it might seem easy on the outside. However, a lot of thought goes into how teams are formed and how to tackle a development process.
    I'm going to finish a doctorate in astrophysics before you guys even reach beta ;):whistle: In all seriousness though, I think you guys are doing your best, but some things seem misprioritized. If the alpha had better gameplay I don't think you'd have community problems. If there were reasons to test the modules and such in game there wouldn't be the large numbers of people leaving the game. If ships and stations didn't just gather dust we wouldn't be having these conversations. People are generally happy to test out balances, changes, and new features.
     

    Edymnion

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    I don't think so. Many dudes who were against that power change explained their opinion, and quite often their opinion nailed some real problems of that overhaul.
    They tore it apart, but I didn't see very many people trying to make it work or make it better.

    Most of the feedback I saw was "This sucks!" with some "Here's why it sucks!". Some with alternative ideas as well, but there was very little in the middle ground of "Well, if we change this and tweak that, it will be better".

    Most people just knee-jerk dismissed it and then found reasons to back it up.
     
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    They tore it apart, but I didn't see very many people trying to make it work or make it better.
    It is not the burden of the players to make a mechanic work or even suggest one that works. No developers should ever delegate work to the community.

    Most of the feedback I saw was "This sucks!" with some "Here's why it sucks!". Some with alternative ideas as well, but there was very little in the middle ground of "Well, if we change this and tweak that, it will be better".

    Most people just knee-jerk dismissed it and then found reasons to back it up.
    That assumes that there are "tweak this solutions" There might not be.
     

    StormWing0

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    They tore it apart, but I didn't see very many people trying to make it work or make it better.

    Most of the feedback I saw was "This sucks!" with some "Here's why it sucks!". Some with alternative ideas as well, but there was very little in the middle ground of "Well, if we change this and tweak that, it will be better".

    Most people just knee-jerk dismissed it and then found reasons to back it up.
    Yep so much this, I find it funny how they want all this gameplay related stuff yet see all the backend things that make it work as unimportant because it isn't visibly doing anything for them. Than when ideas for changes to make the game better or different come along they rip it apart like they just had acid dumped on them.
     

    Criss

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    It is not the burden of the players to make a mechanic work or even suggest one that works. No developers should ever delegate work to the community.
    No, but that was the whole point of the proposal no? We were sure we didn't think of everything, and after 40+ pages of thread, we got enough information to revise the system. Ed is right, most of the initial negative criticism did little to help us. It's not useful when memes are thrown around, or new terms like "chandelier ships" are tossed around when it's not explained at all.
     
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    No, but that was the whole point of the proposal no? We were sure we didn't think of everything, and after 40+ pages of thread, we got enough information to revise the system. Ed is right, most of the initial negative criticism did little to help us. It's not useful when memes are thrown around, or new terms like "chandelier ships" are tossed around when it's not explained at all.
    No, a proposal does not ask for others to "fix it". A proposal is sent to a community, or committee saying this is what we plan to do. The committee then rejects or accepts the proposal and gives specific feedback. They are not responsible for making it better. That is for the creator. It is good practice for reviewers to suggest ways to make it better but it is not their responsibility. I will use an example from physics since I am a astrophysicist: I generate a galaxy formation model and propose it for publication. It predicts star formation , density waves, and chemistry in the interstellar medium, but it doesn't reproduce the observed orbits of stars. It is not the reviewers responsibility of the committee to make the model work. It is only their responsibility to point out that the model does not recreate the observed orbits. It is the reviewers responsibility to make sure that I followed the scientific method, that it is understandable, and that the technique is correct. Not fix issues that might come up, just point them out. You guys would have failed across the board in this. Your model was unspecific and vague, your technique was sloppy, and the results were nebulous at best, and you got critiqued hard on all of this. Welcome to peer review. I agree some of the feedback was just as ill formed as your proposal, but that is to be expected from non-professionals. A knee-jerk reaction can be dismissed but if they found reasons to back that up, it is now more sound and needs to be considered. As you are professionals though you are held to a higher standard.

    This is a good video I think applies here:
    And Extra Credits is generally a good channel on game theory. I feel much of the development team would benefit from their information.
     
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    No, a proposal does not ask for others to "fix it". A proposal is sent to a community, or committee saying this is what we plan to do. The committee then rejects or accepts the proposal and gives specific feedback. They are not responsible for making it better. That is for the creator. It is good practice for reviewers to suggest ways to make it better but it is not their responsibility. I will use an example from physics since I am a astrophysicist: I generate a galaxy formation model and propose it for publication. It predicts star formation , density waves, and chemistry in the interstellar medium, but it doesn't reproduce the observed orbits of stars. It is not the reviewers responsibility of the committee to make the model work. It is only their responsibility to point out that the model does not recreate the observed orbits. It is the reviewers responsibility to make sure that I followed the scientific method, that it is understandable, and that the technique is correct. Not fix issues that might come up, just point them out. You guys would have failed across the board in this. Your model was unspecific and vague, your technique was sloppy, and the results were nebulous at best, and you got critiqued hard on all of this. Welcome to peer review. I agree some of the feedback was just as ill formed as your proposal, but that is to be expected from non-professionals. A knee-jerk reaction can be dismissed but if they found reasons to back that up, it is now more sound and needs to be considered. As you are professionals though you are held to a higher standard.

    This is a good video I think applies here:
    And Extra Credits is generally a good channel on game theory. I feel much of the development team would benefit from their information.
    I like to watch the extra credits videos. But there is allways this fine line between some entertaining information that give people, who aren't devs, some insights into gaming development, to thinking that ideas are 1 to 1 applicable to the real hard gaming industry world. I am no dev and I like watching the videos, but I would not assume that the videos know everything right. They might be helpful but should not be treated like some holy words that figured it out and can make you an expert.

    Anyway nice that you posted the video link I am happy if more people watch those vids.
     
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    I just wish we had a modding community in SM akin to that found in SOASE.. If we did we would likely have something like that already.
    We don't have such a community because a lot of core aspects of the game are not moddable. You can't really create new behaviors and features within the engine because we have no access to it. All we have are config files that let us adjust things. I would really mod the crap out of the game but there isn't much you could do. The possibilities seem to exist within the game itself.

    They tore it apart, but I didn't see very many people trying to make it work or make it better.

    Most of the feedback I saw was "This sucks!" with some "Here's why it sucks!". Some with alternative ideas as well, but there was very little in the middle ground of "Well, if we change this and tweak that, it will be better".

    Most people just knee-jerk dismissed it and then found reasons to back it up.
    I think people knee-jerked because the first few pages of the thread were mostly blind praise. I don't really think that is good either. I didn't think the proposed system would work too well and I definitely understand why some people freaked out. Its the reason that the RP versus PVP conversation is still raging. There seems to me that there are some misconceptions that were driving the power revisions. I do think that the PVP tends to behave more immature in how they present their opinions but they do not come to those opinions lightly. I really can't say so much from the people that basically told the community to sit and wait because Schema's got this.

    There was a lot great ideas that were thrown around just not on the main topic. It seemed to me the majority of people are more concerned with silencing the elements they find more distasteful on this forum. Its become more a battle of personalities than a real discussion. I think that was the main reason we couldn't get solid feedback.

    Ed is right, most of the initial negative criticism did little to help us. It's not useful when memes are thrown around, or new terms like "chandelier ships" are tossed around when it's not explained at all.
    I understood the chandelier ships thing right away. I think that people were being childish in how they talked about it but to me that would be a big point of feedback. Here we have players who might even be 12 or younger ( I know most of them aren't) at least mentally but they can still see something that wasn't seen in planning. I would say that means there is something missing along the line.



    I think it's not that the players are running out of patience, they are running out of confidence. There have been a lot of big promises from Starmade and few have been fulfilled even minimally. I look at games like Empyrion, cranking out updates, blogs, and content. It seem like projects like those are going somewhere. Starmade just seems like its going in circles.
     
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