Remote Drone Control

Edymnion · Sep 29, 2016

There are two big problems I see with Starmade combat at the current time.

1) Not enough players to fully man entire fleets.
2) No one wants to man a fighter when they could man a cruiser or a titan.

So we get lots of big ships, but at least fleets are helping to bring the small fighters back into usefulness, even if the AI for them is dumb as a bag of rocks at the moment.

One thing I think we can help address for #2 though is the fact that since small craft are so easily shot down, few people want to man them directly due to the fact they're pretty assured of being shot out of the sky and having to respawn. Much like in MMOs, the "walk of shame" from respawning to getting back into a ship and back into the fight pretty much makes it a one and done to get shot down.

Instead, I know we have command chairs coming out Soon™, what if we could link those up to remote drones? Have a kind of VR command center full of command chairs where players can sit safely in a station or a carrier and take remote control over fighter drones. Your drone gets shot down? Fine, simply cycle over to the next available drone and keep fighting.

AI not being all that smart doesn't matter quite as much when they are acting mainly as support/wingmen to actual players. Especially if we get to the point we can have sub-fleets. Have remote player drones that then have a wing of smaller AI drones that try to keep formation around it so that your valuable hopefully-not-stupid-as-a-brick humans can feel important commanding a smaller ship while the guys stuck piloting the behemoths are the mostly bored ones because of how little they can do directly beyond "Spend the next 10 minutes trying to turn the ship so the aft turrets can get line of sight".

Heck, considering the titans are mostly just "sit there and do nothing" anyway, might be fun for the carrier pilot to be able to put the carrier on auto-pilot and man a fighter them-self, and only switch back to the carrier when direct human intervention is required.

Benevolent27 · Sep 29, 2016

Edymnion said:
There are two big problems I see with Starmade combat at the current time.

1) Not enough players to fully man entire fleets.
2) No one wants to man a fighter when they could man a cruiser or a titan.

So we get lots of big ships, but at least fleets are helping to bring the small fighters back into usefulness, even if the AI for them is dumb as a bag of rocks at the moment.

One thing I think we can help address for #2 though is the fact that since small craft are so easily shot down, few people want to man them directly due to the fact they're pretty assured of being shot out of the sky and having to respawn. Much like in MMOs, the "walk of shame" from respawning to getting back into a ship and back into the fight pretty much makes it a one and done to get shot down.

Instead, I know we have command chairs coming out Soon™, what if we could link those up to remote drones? Have a kind of VR command center full of command chairs where players can sit safely in a station or a carrier and take remote control over fighter drones. Your drone gets shot down? Fine, simply cycle over to the next available drone and keep fighting.

AI not being all that smart doesn't matter quite as much when they are acting mainly as support/wingmen to actual players. Especially if we get to the point we can have sub-fleets. Have remote player drones that then have a wing of smaller AI drones that try to keep formation around it so that your valuable hopefully-not-stupid-as-a-brick humans can feel important commanding a smaller ship while the guys stuck piloting the behemoths are the mostly bored ones because of how little they can do directly beyond "Spend the next 10 minutes trying to turn the ship so the aft turrets can get line of sight".

Heck, considering the titans are mostly just "sit there and do nothing" anyway, might be fun for the carrier pilot to be able to put the carrier on auto-pilot and man a fighter them-self, and only switch back to the carrier when direct human intervention is required.

This is a great idea. I've seen it before on the suggestion forums. I think I even posted this idea myself. But yeah, I'm in total agreement here. It'd be a lot of fun to ride up in a titan carrier, and then be able to pilot my drones. My idea involved the ability for enemies to use jamming devices to prevent this though. It also involved being able to it from a few sectors away. Ie. drone strikes.

Malacodor · Sep 29, 2016

Benevolent27 said:
It also involved being able to it from a few sectors away. Ie. drone strikes.

I'd even allow controlling ships from homebases without distance limit. This would would eliminate player deaths in PvP, which might seem to be a bad thing at first. However, dying is more annoying than punishing, while losing ships is the real punishment. This isn't WoW, where you retain all your hard farmed T25 gear when dying, in StarMade your equipment is your ship (mostly), and losing it is bad enough.

Paullus · Sep 29, 2016

Should losing a human-piloted drone cost faction points still?

Malacodor · Sep 29, 2016

Paullus said:
Should losing a human-piloted drone cost faction points still?

Good question, I didn't consider FP.

Players should be encouraged to use the suggested feature, not punished. If players lost FP for each destroyed remote controlled drone, that would be too punishing. If a player must be physically present (on a carrier for example) to control nearby drones, then I think FP should still be lost on player death only.

If remote control is possible from a safe distance, then there must be an alternative way to drain FP, of course. FP loss being dependent on losing player controlled ships is probably not that good. People would avoid using ships that can be one-shotted and jump out of ships, when they are too badly damaged to withstand another hit. Losing 1 FP per X mass of lost ships could be a solution.

Paullus · Sep 29, 2016

Malacodor said:
Good question, I didn't consider FP.

Players should be encouraged to use the suggested feature, not punished. If players lost FP for each destroyed remote controlled drone, that would be too punishing. If a player must be physically present (on a carrier for example) to control nearby drones, then I think FP should still be lost on player death only.

If remote control is possible from a safe distance, then there must be an alternative way to drain FP, of course. FP loss being dependent on losing player controlled ships is probably not that good. People would avoid using ships that can be one-shotted and jump out of ships, when they are too badly damaged to withstand another hit. Losing 1 FP per X mass of lost ships could be a solution.

So if a faction ever loses a ship, they lose faction points? This would be pretty harsh, but could be balanced by scaling up the way faction points are gained. It would make sense too, as any lost ship even a drone is equivalent to the faction losing resources. I've always seen faction points as the ability of a faction to influence/control space around them, and it would make sense that losing ships, even drones, would attribute to "losing influence".

Malacodor · Sep 29, 2016

Paullus said:
So if a faction ever loses a ship, they lose faction points? This would be pretty harsh, but could be balanced by scaling up the way faction points are gained. It would make sense too, as any lost ship even a drone is equivalent to the faction losing resources. I've always seen faction points as the ability of a faction to influence/control space around them, and it would make sense that losing ships, even drones, would attribute to "losing influence".

Well, the crucial part is the 'X' in '-1 FP per X mass lost'. It should be high enough to keep the average FP loss at roughly the same level as before. Losing a single small drone shouldn't result in FP loss. Its mass should be stored by the game, though, so that losing multiple small ships would add up until X is reached.

Edymnion · Sep 29, 2016

I'd say keep the FP off the table for remote drones. The idea is to make people WANT to get out in situations where they know they're going to get blown out of the sky, and still enjoy doing it anyway. FP loss negates that entirely, I think. If a player in a carrier letting the AI do the work doesn't lose FP for drone loss, I don't think remote controlled drones should either.

I think thats balanced out a good bit by the fact that all the players are on board a single ship, meaning if you take out the carrier there's going to be massive FP loss due to your entire faction dying at the same time.

---

Alternatively, we could keep FP loss for dying while doing remote piloting, but GRANTING FP for getting kills while in drone mode. Actively encourage people to get out of their big ships and into smaller ones by making FP farming a thing.

Even against pirates, legit dogfights would be a lot of fun, IMO.

Especially if you end up building the carrier with turrets to hinder instead of destroy the opponent directly. Right now a carrier is likely to still be the big guns in a fight simply because its big enough to literally carry big guns. But if you got FP from a remote drone kill and not from a mothership kill?

I can picture motherships decked out with Stop cannons, power drain beams, shield breaker torpedoes, all sorts of crippling armaments that would hinder and handicap an opponent so that the drone fighter pilots could get the actual kills.

I kinda like that idea, actually. Would encourage people to move away from single player factions, as they would need more faction members to pilot with, and it would encourage regular formation play in the form of pirate battles as practice matches.

Heck, just doing cargo ship runs could be a lot of fun that way if you build a cargo ship and assign a drone wing to protect it. Have an auto-pilot function to move the cargo ship towards the destination, and then you remote pilot a fighter in the escort.

Lone_Puppy · Sep 29, 2016

Would make interesting missions to seek out the drone commander for assassination.

Malacodor · Sep 29, 2016

Edymnion said:
I can picture motherships decked out with Stop cannons, power drain beams, shield breaker torpedoes, all sorts of crippling armaments that would hinder and handicap an opponent so that the drone fighter pilots could get the actual kills.

I can also picture frustrated players sitting in their ships with drained shields and power and unable to move or shoot, waiting three hourse for a tiny drone to destroy the ship.

TheGT · Sep 30, 2016

Malacodor said:
I can also picture frustrated players sitting in their ships with drained shields and power and unable to move or shoot, waiting three hourse for a tiny drone to destroy the ship.

Or, you know being a sane person and ejecting, or surrendering, or boarding, or bracing for the other boarders to latch onto you, or hoping your aux isn't hit, or launching your own fighters, or using onboard turret supply, or...

This would bring in quite a few gameplay options from the frustration that gnat-ships advancing on you would cause. With time, danger, and limited resources, people end up macgyvering things. The enterprise is never intercepted in warp with the message "die!" and a warp core explosion 2 seconds later. They'll be trapped in a tractor beam, with only 30 minutes of oxygen left and no shields. They have to make the choice: do I eject the crew, board the enemy, strap some phasers to a shuttle, steal a cloaking device, build some makeshift bulkheads? This is what makes a plot, and interesting gameplay

Edymnion · Sep 30, 2016

Malacodor said:
I can also picture frustrated players sitting in their ships with drained shields and power and unable to move or shoot, waiting three hourse for a tiny drone to destroy the ship.

If its a ship that big that the drones can't do enough damage without shields in the way, that would be the point the other side starts boarding to take the ship whole.

People whine that boarding is too hard and that there is no reason to, this would seem to fix that to some degree as well. If people are flying incapacitators as a normal thing, then suddenly having a ripe target just sitting there would seem to make it much more enticing to me.

Though you say tiny drone ships, I don't know about you but my drone fighters are around 800 mass each with some fairly hefty punch through cannons. You're gonna have to be sitting in a ship with several layers of advanced armor for them to not rip you apart instantly when the swarm gets to you.

Gasboy · Sep 30, 2016

I think this is a decent idea, Edymnion.

Though, I'm someone who would take a fighter over a titan most of the time.

Malacodor · Sep 30, 2016

TheGT said:
Or, you know being a sane person and ejecting, or surrendering, or boarding, or bracing for the other boarders to latch onto you, or hoping your aux isn't hit, or launching your own fighters, or using onboard turret supply, or...

This would bring in quite a few gameplay options from the frustration that gnat-ships advancing on you would cause. With time, danger, and limited resources, people end up macgyvering things. The enterprise is never intercepted in warp with the message "die!" and a warp core explosion 2 seconds later. They'll be trapped in a tractor beam, with only 30 minutes of oxygen left and no shields. They have to make the choice: do I eject the crew, board the enemy, strap some phasers to a shuttle, steal a cloaking device, build some makeshift bulkheads? This is what makes a plot, and interesting gameplay

Edymnion said:
If its a ship that big that the drones can't do enough damage without shields in the way, that would be the point the other side starts boarding to take the ship whole.

People whine that boarding is too hard and that there is no reason to, this would seem to fix that to some degree as well. If people are flying incapacitators as a normal thing, then suddenly having a ripe target just sitting there would seem to make it much more enticing to me.

Though you say tiny drone ships, I don't know about you but my drone fighters are around 800 mass each with some fairly hefty punch through cannons. You're gonna have to be sitting in a ship with several layers of advanced armor for them to not rip you apart instantly when the swarm gets to you.

Those are all good points, consider me convinced.

Nickizzy · Sep 30, 2016

+1
We may need new blocks though. Any ideas on that? We probably only need a RC computer and a RC sensor. The computer acts as the control device, the sensor as the module on the drone.

Interface is key. Some people may have dozens of RC drones, not to mention potential enemy ones. A search function would definitely be nice, as would an option to hide all unaccessable RCDs(provided that there's a system for that or maybe an option in the sensor block to allow/disallow who gets to use it). Will the camera be centered on the RC sensor, or the core, or would you need cameras or something?

Edymnion · Oct 1, 2016

Nickizzy said:
+1
We may need new blocks though. Any ideas on that? We probably only need a RC computer and a RC sensor. The computer acts as the control device, the sensor as the module on the drone.

Well we know command chairs are coming that can be linked to computers and cores for remote access (no more sticking the core on the bridge). Could be as simple as Command Chair > Wireless Block (Mothership) > Wireless Block (Drone) > Drone Core.

Jump in the command chair, and it basically gives you access to the drone as if you had accessed it's core. All controls and views would be the same as if you had jumped straight into the actual core (aka, drones will need cameras).

Benevolent27 · Oct 1, 2016

Malacodor said:
I'd even allow controlling ships from homebases without distance limit. This would would eliminate player deaths in PvP, which might seem to be a bad thing at first. However, dying is more annoying than punishing, while losing ships is the real punishment. This isn't WoW, where you retain all your hard farmed T25 gear when dying, in StarMade your equipment is your ship (mostly), and losing it is bad enough.

I think there should be a distance limit, because there needs to be a drawback to using it and also it needs to be realistic in some way. I don't think anybody should be able to pilot a drone from across the galaxy. That is just not realistic. (That is, unless the admins for the server change a server setting to allow it).

But, I think part of the fun of drone strikes would be also making sure to protect your actual body while you are in a drone. And if there is a way for your enemy to find your body and actually kill you, that would add some interesting elements to the gameplay.
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Paullus said:
Should losing a human-piloted drone cost faction points still?

I don't think so. Faction points are used to respawn players, not ships. I think if the drones can be jammed, that would be penalty enough as it is. No need to also add faction point loss.

Malacodor · Oct 1, 2016

Benevolent27 said:
I think there should be a distance limit, because there needs to be a drawback to using it and also it needs to be realistic in some way.

Why does it need a drawback?

terra mining corp. · Oct 1, 2016

Just use a cloaked relay ship,if they can find you the hunt is on.

Benevolent27 · Oct 1, 2016

Malacodor said:
Why does it need a drawback?

Because then there would never be a reason to actually pilot a ship yourself. As an admin for a PvP server, I would really hate how this would limit and detract from the investment a player has in whether they succeed or not in a battle. Part of what makes combat fun is the risk of death. For drones to be viable on a survival PVP server, the risk of death needs to be maintained (as in, that player must be reachable by the person they are attacking and possibly killed). For this feature to add something to the game, it should create more viable options, with their own set of pros and cons, not eliminate existing ones as untenable.

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Remote Drone Control

Edymnion

Carebear Extraordinaire!

Benevolent27

Join the Dark Side

Malacodor

Paullus

Malacodor

Paullus

Malacodor

Edymnion

Carebear Extraordinaire!

Lone_Puppy

Me, myself and I.

Malacodor

TheGT

Chief Janitorial, Second Legion, Fourth Squadron

Edymnion

Carebear Extraordinaire!

Gasboy

BLRP

Malacodor

Nickizzy

Edymnion

Carebear Extraordinaire!

Benevolent27

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Malacodor

terra mining corp.

Benevolent27

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