Read by Schine Mobile Shipyards (shipyards on ships)

RandomEvent · Sep 15, 2015

I love this thread.

From my experience I think that keeping servers running becomes an admins priority. Love the idea of mobile shipyards but they will likely kill the servers if allowed without nerfing.

Spawning hundreds of drones/ships is a host owners nightmare.
Of course, most of those playing on someone else's server will simply not care and some will even enjoy seeing how quickly they can crash it.

Servers still need much more control over construction limitations. Mass/block count is good, but it only takes a couple of thousand blocks in a line to cross a whole sector. Perhaps ship size XYZ limits would be good too. Especially adding this to what a shipyard is limited to constructing, both mobile and static versions.

Zaphord · Sep 16, 2015

Personally, I think the most useful thing about having mobile shipyards would be that it would allow my carrier to repair and rearm my fighters.

Saves me from keeping potentially dangerous torpedoes on my carrier, I could dock the torpedo bomber to the shipyard on the ship, hit reconstruct from blueprint, and voila! My torpedoes are assembled right on the bomber.

I do agree that this does have the potential to seriously lag the server with drone spam, so why not make it so you can't build ships from a mobile shipyard if you have a full complement of ships slaved to it? Or restrict it to repairs and rearming?

Matt_Bradock · Sep 16, 2015

The only possible use I see for mobile shipyards is a carrier that could keep manufacturing and repairing its drones and fighters (much like a Homeworld carrier could). Otherwise, I'm very much against the idea of getting shipyards any mobility, and for that reason, even if this ever gets implemented, a strict size limit on shipboard shipyards must be imposed.

therimmer96 · Sep 16, 2015

Matt_Bradock said:
The only possible use I see for mobile shipyards is a carrier that could keep manufacturing and repairing its drones and fighters (much like a Homeworld carrier could). Otherwise, I'm very much against the idea of getting shipyards any mobility, and for that reason, even if this ever gets implemented, a strict size limit on shipboard shipyards must be imposed.

Could jump to meet up with a ship that has been heavily damaged and repair it while taking it back home.

Matt_Bradock · Sep 16, 2015

therimmer96 said:
Could jump to meet up with a ship that has been heavily damaged and repair it while taking it back home.

The main problem with that is, as you know, that it's human nature to exploit everything we invent in order to kill people. In sandbox games, it's still in effect. So, I'M pretty damn sure if it can be abused, it will be abused, despite the potential it has to help people as well.

if you want to jump to a damage ship and carry it home, just make a DOCK on your ship. You can use your shipyard on your homebase once you arrive. Same thing, just takes a little longer.

spunkiethefirst · Sep 16, 2015

I would not be opposed to shipyards on a ship as long as its limited to a percentage of the ships mass (server configurable) and each shipyard on the ship can only have one active ship in existence and assigned to it (number of shipyards limited by server config). The mobile hangar would allow activation of the assigned ship's ai from the mothership as well as have a recall function that auto re-docks the ai ship if within a certain server configurable re-dock range. Upon re-docking, the ship is assessed for damage and repaired using storage block inventories linked to the shipyard/hangar computer. The ship should be un-dockable by logic signal linked to the shipyard/hangar computer.

Parameter · Sep 16, 2015

Matt_Bradock said:
The only possible use I see for mobile shipyards is a carrier that could keep manufacturing and repairing its drones and fighters (much like a Homeworld carrier could). Otherwise, I'm very much against the idea of getting shipyards any mobility, and for that reason, even if this ever gets implemented, a strict size limit on shipboard shipyards must be imposed.

There are more uses for a mobile shipyard than a stationary one.

Care and feeding of carriers.
Recovery/roadside assistance for stranded astronauts. ("Did you save your core? We'll save your ship!")
Repair of shuttles or non-combat auxillary craft for large ships.
A forward-operating base for fleet actions, especially in enemy faction territory.
"Reloading" mines, probes, or other pseudo-ships that could be deployed by a minelayer-type craft.
A basic ship-manufacturing capability for new players who don't have a station yet (especially in active servers where derelicts may all be mined or claimed).
Dockable/repositionable shipyards for a modular station ("We've got a titan coming in for a berth, move light craft dry docks A-S to the right wing for now to make space.")
Advertisements for Ship-builder factions near a shop or spawn point ("See the new TX-4 Interceptor pattern. This sleek ship could be yours! Come visit us at Trans-Galactic Fabricators, [-27,17,4]")

Please don't propose to limit the entire player community to shape of your imagination.

Also, how do you determine the strict size limit? What is an acceptable size ship to build and field as a drone? I have drones as small as 3x3x7, but others build drones that might be 10-20 blocks on a side. What about fighters? I have a small fighter which has a narrow cross-section, but its very long. Should I be penalized because my fighter's tail is too long, even though it's mass may be half that of a squattier ship? What about really tall ships (think a B-Wing from StarWars) or flying saucers? Should a titan be expected to field drones and ships the same size as a frigate drone carrier? What's wrong about it building and deploying a full sized shuttle for planet or station access, and then repairing the potentially damaged craft when it returns home? Arbitrary hard limits on things like are bad design.

Having a cargo system that makes resources take up space and weight imposes an implicit limit on how big your shipyard is. Do you want to build and repair frigates on your titan? Better allocate a lot of space to massive cargo storage. By the way, that's gonna reduce your available space for weapons or shields, etc. Also, you're going to need to resupply your resources as you build or repair, so you have to spend time and effort figuring out a supply chain, or allocating yet more space and time for a mining rig, factory complex, and hunting for the right raw materials. If a player is willing to devote that much effort into a mobile shipyard, let them reap the benefits.

If someone uses it to put pressure on your faction, round up the gang and destroy it or its supply chains. Voila, you just wasted a bunch of their time, which in and of itself is a limiting factor on building things. If someone is lagging the server out, an admin can step in and use their tools to fix the problem and the player. It's no different than massive swarm missiles, or planet harvesting, or poor collision checks on docked entities, or stationary shipyards, or any number of other lag-inducing effects servers must deal with already.

Visitor · Sep 16, 2015

I am not fond of this idea much, partially for the very reasons people gave to support it.

Some spoke about things like producing ships and expanding fleet on the go, some mentioned repairing and refusbishing of ships, replenishing losses etc. Exactly because of that I'd rather have shipyards stationary. I don't want people just fixing themselves up to pristine condition, having someone 'heal them up' when they're far into enemy territory and so on.

I'd like actual logistics involved in slowly expanding area of influence for different factions, development of infrastructure, managing fleets carefully and providing both proper maintenance and ship rotation to the frontlines. I like the idea of players hastily performing emergency fixes, filling in holes in the hull with quick patches, scavenging and prioritizing repairs. So after a campaign, when you see the fleet coming back to some shipyard, you can just look at the hulls to learn what kind of stuff they had to deal with. I don't want an army on the go to be able to completely reshape, repair and possibly even reinforce itself.

Having stationary-only shipyards is also good entry point for centers of civilization. Further down the development lane, with properly adjusted costs/hardships in getting and maintaining quality shipyard, they may serve as sort of hubs of commerce and industry. Make a shipyard part of a decent spacestation, with all the basic and some extra facilities and services and you get proper space opera, where (provided we'd get features supporting such) vary travellers, mercenaries, corporate executives, soldiers from broken military units meet in shady bars to buy some really weird drinks from both NPC barmen and player peddlers, purchase equipment, learn news and gossips, offer and seek a job.

There's an interesting argument Parameter brought in regards to such visions:

Parameter said:
Please don't propose to limit the entire player community to shape of your imagination.

Of course, a lot of it is based on my personal sense of aesthetics and idea of how I'd like the gameplay to look like. But that's the thing - everyone here is like that. People don't make, support or disagree with suggestions to save little kittens and ill, poor people, but because they think it'd fit how they'd like game to work (or not).

kiraen · Sep 16, 2015

And when you get right down to it, what we want out of the game really doesn't matter.

Thankfully Schema let's us play with his game.

Parameter · Sep 16, 2015

Visitor said:
Of course, a lot of it is based on my personal sense of aesthetics and idea of how I'd like the gameplay to look like. But that's the thing - everyone here is like that. People don't make, support or disagree with suggestions to save little kittens and ill, poor people, but because they think it'd fit how they'd like game to work (or not).

I agree with this sentiment. I'm not afraid to say I have a lot of opinions on how I'd like the game to work. Some of them might even be good.

I get a little irked, though, by people who flat out say, "I don't like the way you want to play, so let's keep your toys out of the sandbox." I don't see any reason why your idea couldn't co-exist with my envisioning of mobile shipyards. Mobile shipyards would require a reasonable amount of ship power, and they have to get and store the resources on-ship to work. This matters a lot with a real cargo system.

You say

Visitor said:
I'd like actual logistics involved in slowly expanding area of influence for different factions, development of infrastructure, managing fleets carefully and providing both proper maintenance and ship rotation to the frontlines.

I agree. Protecting a fragile mobile shipyard in an enemy system would require actual logistics.

You have to manage a perimeter to protect it (it can't repair itself!).
You have to have convoys bringing in supplies for it to build with, and escorts to protect them.
It's a huge loss if the enemy captures it, because they get those raw resources. It's an even bigger loss, because they get your ship designs. Wow, that's a lot of risk to balance the benefits of a forward operating base.
Quick patch jobs would still exist. If a resource runs low, or waves of enemy attacks are close, or you're short-handed, you won't be able to fully restore every ship between combat missions on the front lines.

I don't think mobile shipyards detract from your civilization hub, either. Stations are still likely to be where people congregate.

They don't move. This is a biggie. Stations are static landmarks you can navigate to in the galaxy map, so they are great for meet-ups
It's easier for them to be big. Stations are more likely to have more power, larger cargo stores, larger shipyards, more RP areas - more everything, really.
Stations are expensive investments. This makes them more likely to be protected by their owning faction, which makes it safer to meet there than elsewhere in space.
Stations can be invulnerable via faction home status. This makes them an important place to shelter important stuff. People spend time around their important stuff.

None of these things that attract people to stations are affected by mobile shipyards. People will still spend time at stations because of the above reasons, in addition to socializing, RPing, etc.

Having stationary-only shipyards kills the logistics problem I outlined above entirely. It also kills all of the interesting things I listed in the post you quoted. I understand and agree with your interest in stations as social hubs. The experience you outlined in your post sounds fun and is something I'd like to experience. But I'd also like to fly a drone carrier into battle, or have a real reason to deliver supplies to the front lines of a war zone, or repair a shuttle on my battleship after an unfortunate encounter with a planet's wildlife. Those are experiences that mobile shipyards enable. Please don't suggest to Schine that they should take those experiences away.

I'd like to play with my toys in the sandbox, too.

spunkiethefirst · Sep 17, 2015

It would seem best that, if a feature does not appeal to the masses, then it should be made a server config option. That way those without a voice here may create a server as they see fit and then the server populations will decide after that. The only thing to decide is whether it is a default setting in the config or not.

max stripe · Sep 17, 2015

Visitor said:
I am not fond of this idea much, partially for the very reasons people gave to support it.

Some spoke about things like producing ships and expanding fleet on the go, some mentioned repairing and refusbishing of ships, replenishing losses etc. Exactly because of that I'd rather have shipyards stationary. I don't want people just fixing themselves up to pristine condition, having someone 'heal them up' when they're far into enemy territory and so on.

I'd like actual logistics involved in slowly expanding area of influence for different factions, development of infrastructure, managing fleets carefully and providing both proper maintenance and ship rotation to the frontlines. I like the idea of players hastily performing emergency fixes, filling in holes in the hull with quick patches, scavenging and prioritizing repairs. So after a campaign, when you see the fleet coming back to some shipyard, you can just look at the hulls to learn what kind of stuff they had to deal with. I don't want an army on the go to be able to completely reshape, repair and possibly even reinforce itself.

Having stationary-only shipyards is also good entry point for centers of civilization. Further down the development lane, with properly adjusted costs/hardships in getting and maintaining quality shipyard, they may serve as sort of hubs of commerce and industry. Make a shipyard part of a decent spacestation, with all the basic and some extra facilities and services and you get proper space opera, where (provided we'd get features supporting such) vary travellers, mercenaries, corporate executives, soldiers from broken military units meet in shady bars to buy some really weird drinks from both NPC barmen and player peddlers, purchase equipment, learn news and gossips, offer and seek a job.

There's an interesting argument Parameter brought in regards to such visions:

Of course, a lot of it is based on my personal sense of aesthetics and idea of how I'd like the gameplay to look like. But that's the thing - everyone here is like that. People don't make, support or disagree with suggestions to save little kittens and ill, poor people, but because they think it'd fit how they'd like game to work (or not).

cause fuck the nomads?

spunkiethefirst · Sep 17, 2015

*doubles over in pain*
"AUUUGGHH!!! RIGHT IN THE NOMADS!!!" *coughs*

Visitor · Sep 17, 2015

max stripe said:
cause fuck the nomads?

Nomads often were making stops at civilized places where they traded and bought goods and service they sought but couldn't produce/perform themselves. So, no, not "fuck the nomads".

Parameter said:
I agree. Protecting a fragile mobile shipyard in an enemy system would require actual logistics.

You have to manage a perimeter to protect it (it can't repair itself!).

You have to have convoys bringing in supplies for it to build with, and escorts to protect them.

It's a huge loss if the enemy captures it, because they get those raw resources. It's an even bigger loss, because they get your ship designs. Wow, that's a lot of risk to balance the benefits of a forward operating base.

Quick patch jobs would still exist. If a resource runs low, or waves of enemy attacks are close, or you're short-handed, you won't be able to fully restore every ship between combat missions on the front lines.

In all honesty, I'd rather have such as concerns be viable for stationary shipyards, though I'd also have availability of decent-quality ones made a bit more challenging. Especially since let's be honest, no one would really use such shipyards in a situation when it's a risk anyway, mobile or not. If anything, mobile ones would be a way to make it easier to stock up on resources and to stealthily relocate instead of beign forced facing enemy siege/blockade. The last point you make in particular looks a bit weird to me - local mobile shipyard would be the best and easiest opportunity to perform big-scale mass repairs. If emergency repairs, juggling resources and so on would be to be a thing, mobile shipyards will make them less viable or necessary.

Parameter said:
I don't think mobile shipyards detract from your civilization hub, either. Stations are still likely to be where people congregate.

They don't move. This is a biggie. Stations are static landmarks you can navigate to in the galaxy map, so they are great for meet-ups

It's easier for them to be big. Stations are more likely to have more power, larger cargo stores, larger shipyards, more RP areas - more everything, really.

Stations are expensive investments. This makes them more likely to be protected by their owning faction, which makes it safer to meet there than elsewhere in space.

Stations can be invulnerable via faction home status. This makes them an important place to shelter important stuff. People spend time around their important stuff.

I recognize your first argument, the rest is a bit less important. If one has a will to build, any investment is manageable and the size up to one's will - at least with economy being as it currently is, where it's easy to acquire considerable funds and even lone players are able to build their own huge battleships. I don't know about future but right now there's not much of any stuff to be sheltered anyway so the last argument in particular won't work - any blocks and items one acquires usually are either fed to make money or turn into new constructions. It may however change and as my idea above shows - I'd want it to.

Mostly, right now, beside problems I voiced before I am unsure if adding ability to mass-produce ships on other ships and all the balancing it would require would be worth it given that making improvised, temporary drydock if one needs such is already a possibility (and temporary constructions are what actual nomads were doing in the past - how fitting!)

max stripe · Sep 17, 2015

Visitor said:
Nomads often were making stops at civilized places where they traded and bought goods and service they sought but couldn't produce/perform themselves. So, no, not "fuck the nomads".

In all honesty, I'd rather have such as concerns be viable for stationary shipyards, though I'd also have availability of decent-quality ones made a bit more challenging. Especially since let's be honest, no one would really use such shipyards in a situation when it's a risk anyway, mobile or not. If anything, mobile ones would be a way to make it easier to stock up on resources and to stealthily relocate instead of beign forced facing enemy siege/blockade. The last point you make in particular looks a bit weird to me - local mobile shipyard would be the best and easiest opportunity to perform big-scale mass repairs. If emergency repairs, juggling resources and so on would be to be a thing, mobile shipyards will make them less viable or necessary.

I recognize your first argument, the rest is a bit less important. If one has a will to build, any investment is manageable and the size up to one's will - at least with economy being as it currently is, where it's easy to acquire considerable funds and even lone players are able to build their own huge battleships. I don't know about future but right now there's not much of any stuff to be sheltered anyway so the last argument in particular won't work - any blocks and items one acquires usually are either fed to make money or turn into new constructions. It may however change and as my idea above shows - I'd want it to.

Mostly, right now, beside problems I voiced before I am unsure if adding ability to mass-produce ships on other ships and all the balancing it would require would be worth it given that making improvised, temporary drydock if one needs such is already a possibility (and temporary constructions are what actual nomads were doing in the past - how fitting!)

the most civilized place ive stopped at is a shop... and a player base to shoot the place up after i built a ship from a BP at a shop

whooplaah · Sep 17, 2015

Nomads are, by definition, not as efficient as settled communities. There are some things that simply can't be done with a nomadic lifestyle - farming, mining, and factory production among them. Nomads that exist within Sci-Fi, such as the Sand-Crawling Jawas from Star Wars or the Firefly from Firefly, all depend upon hubs of civilization to continue existing. Because they can't do everything on the go.

Even in Star Trek, in the few episodes they show how they repair the ship, it isn't flying or moving while being repaired. It parks, is repaired by a parked repair ship, and then flies off.

Without stationary facilities there is nothing to keep the nomad alive. If the nomad does not need stationary facilities, then there is no need for anyone to build a stationary facility.

kiraen · Sep 17, 2015

Let's not forget the most famous of nomadic tribes. The Mongols.

They captured, sacked, and pillaged a significant amount to of territory. They survived off of plunder and returned often for tribute.

They collapsed when they stopped attacking cities.

Nomads survive off of stations, one way or another.

Parameter · Sep 18, 2015

whooplaah said:
Nomads are, by definition, not as efficient as settled communities. There are some things that simply can't be done with a nomadic lifestyle - farming, mining, and factory production among them. Nomads that exist within Sci-Fi, such as the Sand-Crawling Jawas from Star Wars or the Firefly from Firefly, all depend upon hubs of civilization to continue existing. Because they can't do everything on the go.

I disagree that farming cannot be done nomadically in SF settings. Generation ships, AKA colony ships, or Arks, have a rich history in SF of having fully sustainable biospheres. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_ship for some fiction sources. Hydroponics is done in self-contained setups today, even in space aboard the ISS.

I disagree that mining cannot be done nomadically in SF settings. From http://alienanthology.wikia.com/wiki/USCSS_Nostromo:

The USCSS Nostromo (reg. 180924609) was a $42 billion (and adjusted) mining vessel owned by the Weyland-Yutani Corporation, a Lockmart CM 88B Bison M-Class starfreighter used as a commercial hauler between Thedus and Earth. The Nostromo was 243.8 meters in length, 164.6 meters wide and 72.5 meters in height. It also carried (or rather pulled) a massive refinery behind it for processing ore on the long trip to Earth.

I disagree that production cannot be done nomadically in SF settings. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicator_(Star_Trek):

The technology is also used for producing spare parts, which makes it possible to repair most ship damage without having to return to a starbase.

See also current developments in 3D printing.

I found these examples in just a couple minutes. There are many, many more. Technology and automation are a force multiplier that allow us humans to do more with less. In the 1960s, people would have argued that you could never do complex mathematical modeling with computers while on the move. Today I do it every single time I play a game on my smart phone. By the time we reach Starmade levels of technology, ships can generate vast quantities of power from nothing, effortlessly mine tons of raw material, bend the fabric of space-time, break all sorts of physical laws - surely they have reached the reasonable level of being able to operate a 3D printer in space.

I see no reason here to force people to go to stations to produce goods, repair ships, or buy and sell.

whooplaah said:
Even in Star Trek, in the few episodes they show how they repair the ship, it isn't flying or moving while being repaired. It parks, is repaired by a parked repair ship, and then flies off.

This is a great example of the kind of science fiction mobile shipyards would emulate.

Prometheous- · Sep 18, 2015

do we all forget (nearly) every ones favourite space games the homeworld series did center around mobile shipyard's and ore refineries.

the overall balance of space used up (especially once the cargo system is in effect) for factory type tech really does limit the combat power of this type of ship. Also add a limit that these devices can only be used when the ship drops anchor and can no longer move or jump while using station functions, add to that a large cool down caused by lifting and dropping THAT is related to the MASS of the SHIP. (More mass more cool down, extra cool down added by each factory type block as well.)

plus like everything else in this game, config file = true or false

Blaza612 · Sep 18, 2015

Prometheous- said:
do we all forget (nearly) every ones favourite space games the homeworld series did center around mobile shipyard's and ore refineries.

the overall balance of space used up (especially once the cargo system is in effect) for factory type tech really does limit the combat power of this type of ship. Also add a limit that these devices can only be used when the ship drops anchor and can no longer move or jump while using station functions, add to that a large cool down caused by lifting and dropping THAT is related to the MASS of the SHIP. (More mass more cool down, extra cool down added by each factory type block as well.)

plus like everything else in this game, config file = true or false

We've already discussed this, and the simple answer that's come out, is no. This moved from being about shipyards exclusively to capitals ships in general a while back, there are those who are Nomads who'd rather spend their entire Starmade lives on a single capital ship, without having to make a station. What you suggested is almost as bad. I want to be able to run all of my station stuff as I'm flying around, it'll be using significantly more power already, which in itself is an act of balancing. Having cooldowns between doing so is even worse, it restricts Nomads to the point where it's so much hassle to have a capital ship that the only option becomes the station, rather than both.

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Read by Schine Mobile Shipyards (shipyards on ships)

RandomEvent

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The Cake Network Staff Senior button unpusher

Matt_Bradock

The Shrink

spunkiethefirst

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kiraen

Parameter

spunkiethefirst

max stripe

spunkiethefirst

Visitor

max stripe

whooplaah

kiraen

Parameter

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Blaza612

The Dog of Dissapointment